Acecosies, welcome to the discussion. Geronimo was not off on a raid when his family was murdered, he was trading @ the Mexican village of Kaskiyeh & were supposed to be @ peace w/ them @ that time. His family was camped nearby. Geronimo's Great grandson, Harlyn, confirms this in his book. The Navajos were the main group @ Bosque Redondo & some Jicarilla Apaches, not the Chiricahua Apaches. You're 100% correct in Injuns being starved @ all reservations (supplies could be sold to Whites by unscrupulous agents especially including Tiffany). San Carlos was & still is an unhealthy hole, although improved from the 1800's. I've often questioned which side I'd have been on, Geronimo & the broncos or (like my great grandfather) a scout for the army. I can't imagine stomaching the army duty any more than Great Grandpa did (he refused to sign up for another term).
The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...
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T.C.
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Excellent thread, gentlemen
Real of Tayopa
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IJUNBRO, I must admit that you have a valid point 
cof
fee ?----- no booze for injuns.
coffee ?----- no booze for injuns.Don Jose, I'll take the coffee... ain't old enough to drink booze (this gray hair is just camouflage). What happened to our good friend IPUK who started this thread? Maybe being English he'd prefer tea? (us Injuns only use tea to color leather).
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From Bourke (paraphrased): "In the history of humans on this planet, no single culture holds a monopoly on cruelty to their fellow man."
From the many books, articles, and other documents, I have only come across on instance of an Apache raping a non-Indian.
"I do not wish to be understood as in the least palliating their crimes, but I wish to say a word to stem the torrent of invective and abuse which has almost universally been indulged in against the whole Apache race. This is not strange on the frontier from a certain class of vampires who prey on the misfortunes of their fellow-men, and who live best and easiest in time of Indian troubles. With them peace kills the goose that lays the golden egg. Greed and avarice on the part of the whitesāin other words, the almighty dollarāis at the bottom of nine tenths of all our Indian trouble." General George Crook, in a candid letter to his superiors
From John Bourke: "[At Camp Verde] the prospects of the Apaches looked especially bright, and there was hope that they might soon be self-sufficient; but it was not to be. A āringā of Federal officials, contractors, and others was formed in Tucson, which exerted great influence in the national capital, and succeeded in securing the issue of peremptory orders that the Apaches should leave at once for the mouth of the sickly San Carlos, there to be herded with other tribes. It was an outrageous proceeding, one for which I should still blush had I not long since gotten over blushing for anything that the United States government did in Indian matters." (216-217)
from Bourke: "A matter of great grievance with the Apaches, which they could not understand ā¦ was why their little farms ā¦ should be destroyedāas they wereāand why their cattle and horses should be driven off by soldiers and citizensā¦. The whole scheme of Caucasian contact with the American aboriginesāat least the Anglo-Saxon part of itāhas been based upon that fundamental maxim of politics so beautifully and so tersely enunciated by the New York aldermanāāThe āboysā are in it for the stuff.ā The āTucson ringā was determined that no Apache should be put to the embarrassment of working for his own living; once we let the Apaches become self-supporting, what would become of āthe boysā?
From the many books, articles, and other documents, I have only come across on instance of an Apache raping a non-Indian.
"I do not wish to be understood as in the least palliating their crimes, but I wish to say a word to stem the torrent of invective and abuse which has almost universally been indulged in against the whole Apache race. This is not strange on the frontier from a certain class of vampires who prey on the misfortunes of their fellow-men, and who live best and easiest in time of Indian troubles. With them peace kills the goose that lays the golden egg. Greed and avarice on the part of the whitesāin other words, the almighty dollarāis at the bottom of nine tenths of all our Indian trouble." General George Crook, in a candid letter to his superiors
From John Bourke: "[At Camp Verde] the prospects of the Apaches looked especially bright, and there was hope that they might soon be self-sufficient; but it was not to be. A āringā of Federal officials, contractors, and others was formed in Tucson, which exerted great influence in the national capital, and succeeded in securing the issue of peremptory orders that the Apaches should leave at once for the mouth of the sickly San Carlos, there to be herded with other tribes. It was an outrageous proceeding, one for which I should still blush had I not long since gotten over blushing for anything that the United States government did in Indian matters." (216-217)
from Bourke: "A matter of great grievance with the Apaches, which they could not understand ā¦ was why their little farms ā¦ should be destroyedāas they wereāand why their cattle and horses should be driven off by soldiers and citizensā¦. The whole scheme of Caucasian contact with the American aboriginesāat least the Anglo-Saxon part of itāhas been based upon that fundamental maxim of politics so beautifully and so tersely enunciated by the New York aldermanāāThe āboysā are in it for the stuff.ā The āTucson ringā was determined that no Apache should be put to the embarrassment of working for his own living; once we let the Apaches become self-supporting, what would become of āthe boysā?
Crowfriend
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Apache cave I found in the Peloncillos. The partially burned juniper logs are from the time of Apache occupation of this cave. I led an Archaeologist to this site and she wrote a paper on her findings. Caches were found. Amazing place. i have found other sites in the Chiricahua Mountains as well.
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High up in the Chiricahua Mountains of S E Arizona are five caves with paintings in them. One of the caves, the last one, has this painting in it. There are no other paintings in this particular cave, only this one. The experts I have met all state, unequivocally, that it depicts a Gahn (Mountain Spirit). I don't agree with that because of the horse and the braids. Apaches in Arizona were not known to have braids. What they have determined is a crown on his head, I have always thought was a scarf wrapped around his head since it extends from the side of his head rather than the center. I think the artist put it up in the air rather than hanging down to show the details as clearly as possible. Gahn deities are not associated with horses.
Back in the day, the pattern, color, and position of knots and knot style of headscarf, along with hairstyle, (according to Basso and Goodwin both), were all identifiers of person, clan, party and tribal group. This made it easier to distinguish the strange from the familiar, and friend from foe... War hats or headdresses were created through personal vision and differed widely.markings in the weave of a scarf and the way it was knotted would identify the clan the person was associated with. Friend or foe. The photo of Apache shield from Texas also sports a similar design. It took me quite a while to put this information together, to connect the dots so to speak. I am the only one to have come to this conclusion about the horseman painting.
Back in the day, the pattern, color, and position of knots and knot style of headscarf, along with hairstyle, (according to Basso and Goodwin both), were all identifiers of person, clan, party and tribal group. This made it easier to distinguish the strange from the familiar, and friend from foe... War hats or headdresses were created through personal vision and differed widely.markings in the weave of a scarf and the way it was knotted would identify the clan the person was associated with. Friend or foe. The photo of Apache shield from Texas also sports a similar design. It took me quite a while to put this information together, to connect the dots so to speak. I am the only one to have come to this conclusion about the horseman painting.
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Real of Tayopa
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More. more CrowF and one for our local member, injunbro, who suffers greatly psychologically, by not having any of the 'pure blood of kings' in his linage, but then not all of us are fortunate to be touched by the hand of GOD Oirland is the land of green, where as -- they have to go to Mexico to see green.:
and one for our local member, injunbro, who suffers greatly psychologically, by not having any of the 'pure blood of kings' in his linage, but then not all of us are fortunate to be touched by the hand of GOD Oirland is the land of green, where as -- they have to go to Mexico to see green.:
Real of Tayopa
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Headdress Knots ?? Shades of the Inca Quipu and Hawaiian systems More.
Crowfriend
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New to me, thank you, one path always leads to another.
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More. more CrowF
You are a wickedly clever man. Respect.
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A few years ago I was invited to a 3 day ceremony in the east stronghold of the Dragoons. About 50 "enemies" showed up; Lipans, Mescaleros, Chiricahuas, and San Carlos people. I was first to arrive, having camped the night before. It took place in the middle of the July monsoons. Early in the first morning, I was walking down the road and a van pulls up. He veers over to me, rolls down his window and says "Where are we to camp?" I had never met the man before. I do not look like a native man. No hellos, how are you?, no introduction of any sort. This was my first inclination of the cultural differences from how I grew up. I was to learn, over the next few years that the cultural chasm is wide and permeated all aspects of my interactions with them in countless ways. I asked a lot of questions and listened a lot. One question I asked was about Geronimo and Naiche's relationship. I was met with silence. A month later he brings it up like this: "Remember that question you asked about that man?" "Which man?" "The man who fell of his horse." "You mean Geronimo?" "Yes. The group of Chiricahuas I hang with are descendants of Cochise. We do not say his name." Then he gave me his lengthy answer to my question.
This photo of a man I called "Sees Faces" wanted me to take him to the Chief's rock at the treaty site. I have permission to publish this photo. Several did not want me to take photos of them. He was 72 and the climb to the top of the rock was arduous for him. Cut and bleeding a bit, he made it. With his crossed arms he was demonstrating the Indian version of the crucifixion. Then he gazed off into the distance and I snapped his photo. I called him "Sees Faces" because that is what he did. Those boulders in the dragoons have lots of faces. He would point one out and tell me a story about that face. "That man did not live his life in a good way, now he is forever frowning." That sort of thing. Like I said, the cultural difference was strong. It seemed that everything I did and said was scrutinized through a different perspective, a spiritual perspective for sure. Even idle talk seemed to me to be from a spiritual center.
the second photo is of the Holy ground set up for the ceremony, by permission. The arrow is a place one of the Indians told me I should go as there was something there for me. The X is a flat field I was told I should not walk in as there were burials there.
Enjoy
This photo of a man I called "Sees Faces" wanted me to take him to the Chief's rock at the treaty site. I have permission to publish this photo. Several did not want me to take photos of them. He was 72 and the climb to the top of the rock was arduous for him. Cut and bleeding a bit, he made it. With his crossed arms he was demonstrating the Indian version of the crucifixion. Then he gazed off into the distance and I snapped his photo. I called him "Sees Faces" because that is what he did. Those boulders in the dragoons have lots of faces. He would point one out and tell me a story about that face. "That man did not live his life in a good way, now he is forever frowning." That sort of thing. Like I said, the cultural difference was strong. It seemed that everything I did and said was scrutinized through a different perspective, a spiritual perspective for sure. Even idle talk seemed to me to be from a spiritual center.
the second photo is of the Holy ground set up for the ceremony, by permission. The arrow is a place one of the Indians told me I should go as there was something there for me. The X is a flat field I was told I should not walk in as there were burials there.
Enjoy
Real of Tayopa
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Crowfriend, you do not know what you have set up for yourself. I expect follow up stories, many. Native stories always fascinate me, unfortunately, mine are concentrated south of the border. Twixt you and Injunbro - the would be OIRISHMAN - we have had a good start.
As for when the atrocity stories go, since they started over 400 years ago, before whitey,who knows which was the first According to the Pimas, Seris, Yaquis, the Apache was, since this was not his land, but ------------,
As for when the atrocity stories go, since they started over 400 years ago, before whitey,who knows which was the first According to the Pimas, Seris, Yaquis, the Apache was, since this was not his land, but ------------,
Crowfriend's post bought another Native American 'name story' to mind.
Is it true in Native American culture that the name of a deceased person is not suppose to be mentioned in conversation?
If true, is that only Navajo tradition or common in other Native People's as well?
Also, if a Native person's name was/is based on an event (such as Geronimo), is every Native's name constantly changing as newer more noteworthy 'events' occur?
If so, it seems it could get confusing say when trying to identify a person not present, whose name may have evolved and where that single individual may be known by different names to different speakers.
Maybe Injunbro or Crowfriend (or whatever their names are today.
) can shed some light on this?
Two of my personal favorites were Darkmoon Cliffdweller (Navajo) and Golden (Apache), an appropriate name for this LDM site.
Is it true in Native American culture that the name of a deceased person is not suppose to be mentioned in conversation?
If true, is that only Navajo tradition or common in other Native People's as well?
Also, if a Native person's name was/is based on an event (such as Geronimo), is every Native's name constantly changing as newer more noteworthy 'events' occur?
If so, it seems it could get confusing say when trying to identify a person not present, whose name may have evolved and where that single individual may be known by different names to different speakers.
Maybe Injunbro or Crowfriend (or whatever their names are today.
) can shed some light on this?Two of my personal favorites were Darkmoon Cliffdweller (Navajo) and Golden (Apache), an appropriate name for this LDM site.
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Crowfriend
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"Is it true in Native American culture that the name of a deceased person is not suppose to be mentioned in conversation?"
Yes, but in the case I was writing about, my friend would not say Geronimo's name because their was animosity from his camp. Needless to say there are some who believe he was a hero and some who think he was villain.
But here's the deal. We are all people. We all have cultural bias. Within any group of humans there are some that believe this and some believe that. Some are mean, some are good. Think about this: at one time Geronimo was the most hated man in North America. Next thing you know, he's leading Teddy Roosevelt's Inaugural Parade. At one moment in time any American would have liked to see his neck snapped in a noose, next thing you know he's at the World Fair cutting off buttons from his shirt to sell to the same people who were clamoring for his head.
Yes, but in the case I was writing about, my friend would not say Geronimo's name because their was animosity from his camp. Needless to say there are some who believe he was a hero and some who think he was villain.
But here's the deal. We are all people. We all have cultural bias. Within any group of humans there are some that believe this and some believe that. Some are mean, some are good. Think about this: at one time Geronimo was the most hated man in North America. Next thing you know, he's leading Teddy Roosevelt's Inaugural Parade. At one moment in time any American would have liked to see his neck snapped in a noose, next thing you know he's at the World Fair cutting off buttons from his shirt to sell to the same people who were clamoring for his head.
Crowfriend
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Injunbro wrote "They never pushed their religion on anyone else either & prefer, then & now, to just be left alone."
The man I spent the most time with, a Chiricahua Man, told me about how they were approached with licensing their beliefs as a tax free religion. They refused as it had nothing to do with the framework of their beliefs. He talked about various ordained priests that wanted to co-mingle. as it were, the belief system. refused of course. I don't remember the entire conversation but what I do remember best is when he looked at me intensely and says "You know what Apaches want the most ?" "Whats that?" i ask. "We just want to be left the _ _ _ _ alone!"
The man I spent the most time with, a Chiricahua Man, told me about how they were approached with licensing their beliefs as a tax free religion. They refused as it had nothing to do with the framework of their beliefs. He talked about various ordained priests that wanted to co-mingle. as it were, the belief system. refused of course. I don't remember the entire conversation but what I do remember best is when he looked at me intensely and says "You know what Apaches want the most ?" "Whats that?" i ask. "We just want to be left the _ _ _ _ alone!"
These petroglyphs adorn "Cochise's Rock" & are outside the cave he often slept in. He's buried close but not here. The last picture is the same place from a distance. Some of my "friends" point out that friendly looking halfbreed w/ the mean-eyed blonde wife are the same height but 1 is all legs & the other weighs twice as much & resembles a nail keg... I need better friends!
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Crowfriend
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Here's a group of paintings on the same rock that Injunbro posted above. The paintings are murlti-cultural, but the figure just to the right of middle is the classic Gahn, or Mountain Spirit. The Crown Dancers are the same spirit being.
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