The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...

[Interested Party in UK]

IPUK, Thanks for your kind words but why are you hijacking your own thread? It's an interesting subject, lets stick w/ it.

Cubfan, Re: Motivations for becoming scouts, all of he above. Apaches, like everyone else, are individuals & all have their own personal reasons for everything they do.

Marius, Snake is Tl`ish but now you've went & gave away some new information about yourself & have evolved into: "Marius Ighaa`bijaiilah tulhili idlaani tl`ish" (Marius, Furry chest coffee drinking snake)... I warned you nicknames evolve almost daily & w/ new information! :?

Voice of reason, Injunbro.

You're absolutely right; I am turning this subject and thread, which I am very interested in, into an opportunity to jest with some of the less enlightened amongst us.

Sorry.

During my time posting on TreasureNet, because I've had the temerity to question or try and examine someone's view or 'evidence', they usually come out with personal attacks relating to the country I call home, where my family are and where I earn a living. This in itself is nothing to get an inferiority complex about (I'm not that insecure), but it was the same 'type' of dunderhead throwing the insults so like a silly so-and-so, I responded.

You have my word that we'll get this topic back on track.


IPUK

 

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[Real of Tayopa]

Injunbro ya forgat " he who chases grick dancing girlsr "

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Don't you thnk that I noticed that IPUK, I in turn was negatively egging you on. -- tes of coirse.

Many of we OIRISH are sneaky

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Something else I've been meaning to ask about, Injunbro.

What do you make of the chap who called himself "Nino Cochise"?

He made all sorts of claims and I've come across some evidence that he tried to convince Naiche's children, his son Barnaby I believe, that they were cousins, but was given short shrift. He is also mentioned in the
Lost Adams Diggings legend and made various claims about trying to help Don's crew of Yaqui to purchase guns and ammunition from the States, in their war with the Mexicans.

He claimed that Tom Jeffords was even aware of the renegade free Apache still in the Madre mountains and that they'd all meet-up from time to time surreptitiously!

The guy sure made some fantastical claims!


IPUK

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Don't you thnk that I noticed that IPUK, I in turn was negatively egging you on. -- tes of coirse.

Many of we OIRISH are sneaky

Aye, to be sure you sly paddies have a mischievous streak..!




IPUK

 

[Injunbro]

Injunbro ya forgat " he who chases grick dancing girlsr "

OK, how about: "Marius Ighaa`bijaiilah tulhili idlaani tl`ish yinagha hilwol Greek da`ilzhish ch`ikii" (Marius, Furry chest coffee drinking snake who chases Greek dancing girls". Although it wasn't the original intent this has shown exactly how nicknames evolve, eventually they get very long then whittled down to something useable like "Ighaa ch`ikii hilwol"(Furry girl chaser) which has little bearing on the origin but is remembered by those who were around @ the time.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

INJUNbRO, most of the renegade s were bored members of the tribe and were looking for a little diversion, covering it wth words of freedom, etc..

After all the women did everything, the only thing left for them was planting, and heaven forbid that they had to do any manual labor, so it is off to a bit of raiding etc.justified in their mind by whiteys aggression, mining.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Don,

You still believe that the Apache male was, essentially, a bit work-shy.

The evidence just doesn't add up. A people so inured with "moving like the wind" (Mr Geronimo's words) and being so thoroughly puzzled by barbed wired and nice picket fences who once queried why whitey hadn't tried to bottle-up and also claim the very air we breathed, were never going to accept another, alien concept, from whereby eyes as to how they should "live". During that era, in my country, the U.K. with all its notions of 'greatness' and civilisation, it was still acceptable to have young children working in disgusting and horrible conditions whilst adults looked on. The Apache were a warrior race where the male had set duties, the female their own and even the kids were expected to perform their tasks.

In captivity, even that old indomitable warrior, Geronimo was planting record amounts of crop and the Apache makes were raising solid stock and it wasn't just the ladies doing all the work.


IPUK

 

[azdave35]

I hope to have some input here soon, even though the only things I have to add are based on reading and not experiencing or knowing any Apache - just don't have the time right now to really get in depth.

I do however have a train of thought/questions that may lead to what I hope will be some interesting discussion. It's something I've often wondered about, and although I've read theories and words in books, I would be extremely interested in impressions that someone within the Apache community has on the subject based on family knowledge and stories.

My questions all revolve around those Apache who became scouts...

What were the real motivations for Apaches in becoming scouts to help find "renegade" Apaches during the wars? Some of the theories I've read include:
1. Simply an opportunity to get away from the mundane reservation life and back out in the mountains and desert doing what they loved to do.
2. A chance to make a name for themselves and make a few $ for themselves and their families.
3. Inter tribal conflict - perhaps blaming the "renegades" for causing so much antagonism within the Anglo community which eventually came back to bite all Apache tribes
4. Personal vendetta's
5.

Along with that, how were the Apache relatives of scouts treated within the reservation community? I would have to assume they were treated much like "narcs" within gangs where their families are hated and despised, possibly even physically harmed due to the decision of one of "their own" to help track and kill other Apache. How are ancestors of those scout families treated today?

It's been quite some time since I've read Bourke and Crook biographies, but if I remember correctly at some point one or both men had views of the Apache that evolved over time and I know Bourke for sure spent considerable effort to try to correct at least some of the wrongs done to the Apache after the wars were over.

There is so much I would like to ask questions about, but I'll have to settle for the above for now and hope to spark discussion.

Paul

paul..i'd say #3 and #4....when it comes right down to it...there are bullies in every crowd...not all apaches were blood thirsty...maybe some of the apache's just wanted to help put a stop to all the violence

 

[Real of Tayopa]

IPUK, yeah, then why were they raiding in Mexico, why not just move down there 'en mass' where there was no barbed wire until after 'my' time in roaming the Sierras ? Nor were there many people, Even as late as my time the sierras were effectively open range. You could get on your mule -- keep injunbro away from my mule -- and ride in any direction withour encountering any fences.

 

[azdave35]

AZDAVE35,
Don't waste your time with ipuk, he's just trying to get you riled up. This was an interesting thread.

lol..he couldn't rile me if he tried...i'm just having a little fun with him....cheap entertainment

 

[Real of Tayopa]

God reply and questions cubber

incidentally no like in your post, i'll add it later when it comes back on.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Those that still hankered for the "old ways" did move into the Sierra Madres out of necessity. I believe that Juh's band of Nednhi/southern Chiricahua never ever left those mountains even when under extreme pressure from the armies of two different countries.

As far as the Chiricahua were concerned, their numbers diminished from about 3,000 in the 1870s to under 600 after the 'surrender' of Geronimo and Chief Naiche in 1886. War, disease, slavery by the Mexicans, attrition and tribal marriage all played their part.

But they were definitely in the Madres, perhaps even up until the 1950s when you were there...


IPUK

 

[Interested Party in UK]

lol..he couldn't rile me if he tried...i'm just having a little fun with him....cheap entertainment

Yeah right, that's why you 'bite' at every opportunity, keep kidding yourself baby cake.

"Cheap entertainment"?

You'd know all about that, wouldn't you my boy?



IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

IPUK, most of te Apache were planting, they had found out that with it there were far less famine periods.

We'll never know why Geroni,o planted, perhaps to lull his oveseers.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

ah. ..ah IPUK Az dave,

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Don,

That last one, was one for the road....


IPUK

 

[Injunbro]

Something else I've been meaning to ask about, Injunbro.

What do you make of the chap who called himself "Nino Cochise"?

He made all sorts of claims and I've come across some evidence that he tried to convince Naiche's children, his son Barnaby I believe, that they were cousins, but was given short shrift. He is also mentioned in the
Lost Adams Diggings legend and made various claims about trying to help Don's crew of Yaqui to purchase guns and ammunition from the States, in their war with the Mexicans.

He claimed that Tom Jeffords was even aware of the renegade free Apache still in the Madre mountains and that they'd all meet-up from time to time surreptitiously!

The guy sure made some fantastical claims!


IPUK

I met Nino Cochise before his death around 1985. He could spin a tall tale as good as anyone (& admitted it in his book) but actually knew a lot of stuff outsiders couldn't. He was not Taza's son as he claimed in his book, Taza was sterile (from an injury) & had no children. He told some he was Naiche's elegit son (possible since Naiche was a ladies man & that would explain why the rest of the Naiche's didn't like him), some say he was of Greek descent but he sure looked like Cochise & Naiche. In his book he told of his 1st wife's (a Tarahumari) death during a Mexican revolution but his daughter (still alive in CA) said she died in childbirth. The mine he described existed exactly as described but was in the Chiricahuas, not in the Sierra Madre (been worked out since). When he was very old he told a nurse he liked where she & her husband could find a gold coin cache & they were exactly where he said they'd be. He knew Cochise's original stronghold wasn't where it's named that today but where the Triangle T guest ranch now is. He knew where Cochise grave is & that's not known by outsiders. He didn't speak Apache any better than I do which is interesting but he claimed Spanish & English were pushed as the up & coming languages & Apache squelched by elders. Some Apaches I know swear he was 100% honest, some claim him to be phony... but he sure knew a lot about things no outsider possibly could so if he was phony be was the best bunco artist I ever saw & gained nothing by it. He's buried in Tombstone.
Gun running into Mexico was & is common & profitable (no I don't). Operation Fast & Furious is only a recent 1 that got busted. My great-grandfather did some too (someday maybe I'll find the cache). I could name a few others who still smuggle various things both ways. Tom Jeffords knew the renegades in Mexico (& some here), they did visit on both sides of the border on occasion. Jeffords was a fine man who actually understood both sides of the Apache/White situation... he didn't think much of Mexicans (sorry Don Jose). Jeffords spoke decent Apache but often didn't admit it since that allowed him to make sure his friends of both skin colors were treated fairly by translators.
Personally I think Nino was Apache but being an outsider to those sent to Florida tried hard to find his niche but found it hard going. Being in the same boat I understand completely. Interestingly, Micky Free claimed to be Apache but was an Irish/Mexican crossbreed married to an Apache & no one questioned him. Nino?

 

[torie517]

The apache that lived here are not like the other apache they stayed here they had no dogs they were trickery like the bear or to even say coyotes could bring trickery to you if you wanted to plant one year and not the other that was ok they shared if you had one power you would share it most had a power like geronimo he had the power of the moon he on a raid could keep the moon out till safe back home you could see what i am saying first hand water here is plenty food the same the gold like the bear was nothing to have geronimo used the gold and look what happened I am apache the other tribes came here to met they a ranged marriages and talked

 

[Injunbro]

Don Jose, Apache womens work was the growing & gathering; men's duty was to protect their women & children & provide fresh meat... kind of hard to do w/ a hoe or plow in your hands instead of weapons. It does explain why you bean grower boys were so easy to whup though. I've noticed a lot of hateful, work-shy types around here... they all come from the land of manana. Now you & that burro of yours is invited to my next barbeque, send the burro a couple days early so I have time to "prepare" her. Ahhh.... fresh burro steaks seasoned w/ a bit of mescal honey! Yum!!!