THE ARKIES ARE HERE, THE ARKIES ARE HERE!!!

[Nitric]

Crusader, you call it anything you want, but what they do would never be allowed here. Whether it's 1% or not, they are taking what you found and forcing you to sell it.

Got this quote from Wikipedia. Perfect example of why truly free countries do not tolerate a monarchy. Ridiculous premise that everything in the country belongs to the Crown. Can't believe you guys put up with this baloney in the 21st century.

Technically, if you find enough of a combined amount for the year it's supposed to be declared on your taxes, which would be much more than his %. I'll bet no one does this, just like I'll bet some things work over there the same way.

 

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[CRUSADER]

Technically, if you find enough of a combined amount for the year it's supposed to be declared on your taxes, which would be much more than his %. I'll bet no one does this, just like I'll bet some things work over there the same way.

Only if you sell it & make an income. I never sell my finds (hence the collection!), but I'm sure lots do.

 

[Nitric]

Only if you sell it & make an income. I never sell my finds (hence the collection!), but I'm sure lots do.

That part of it may be the same here. I'm not sure...I was just giving freebird a hard time.

 

[FreeBirdTim]

Nitric, I never find anything of value, so no need to declare any of my junk finds as income!

 

[FreeBirdTim]

Crusader, I understand your point, but it still stinks to have your government controlling ANYTHING found by anyone.

What really stinks are the strongarm tactics they try to pull. Unlimited fine and up to three months in jail if you don't declare a find? Ridiculous.

https://www.gov.uk/treasure

 

[CRUSADER]

Crusader, I understand your point, but it still stinks to have your government controlling ANYTHING found by anyone.

What really stinks are the strongarm tactics they try to pull. Unlimited fine and up to three months in jail if you don't declare a find? Ridiculous.

https://www.gov.uk/treasure

Yes, I have 14 days to declare potential treasure. However, treasure is not defined until the British Museum has written a report (includes testing of silver & gold content etc..) & the Coroner has rubber stamped that report as legal. So in reality that means until you realise it's treasure, your not going to be done for it. Which means as long as you can defend your position that you didn't know, you will avoid legal prosecution. That's not to say you can use ignorance as a defence, but that they will allow you some leeway. You find me anyone that has been prospected & imprisoned for the crimes you quote?

 

[Nitric]

Another thing that cracks me up? Is that a couple of you said you found stuff at the sites after the they left? You would think the "professionals" would be more thorough, since they have more resources.

 

[FreeBirdTim]

You find me anyone that has been prospected & imprisoned for the crimes you quote?

I'm not your personal whipping boy. You find it if you really care to research it. But here's one where they harassed a woman who found "treasure" as a little girl and they prosecuted her 14 years later. They only fined her 25 pounds, but it does show how they tried to strongarm her into giving up her find. How pathetic...

 

[FreeBirdTim]

And in our country, there is a statute of limitations on most non-felony "crimes". Not reporting a treasure trove can't possibly be a felony, so they never should have pursued it 14 years after the fact.

 

[Nitric]

And in our country, there is a statute of limitations on most non-felony "crimes". Not reporting a treasure trove can't possibly be a felony, so they never should have pursued it 14 years after the fact.

That's only good here if....you can prove that you purposely didn't try to defraud. There is no statue if they prove you intentionally did it. I'm meaning the tax part.


In the U.S. They do go after people....The biggest one I can remember was the guy collecting all the artifacts. or that collected them his whole life. We also have something here called "asset forfeiture" where they can take everything you own on suspicion and no proof...We will just take it and ask questions later.... I know someone 84 that is going through this...

What I'm getting at is the same thing goes on in the U.S. just under different names. Of course I think were talking about big finds. I'm sure they don't turn in every little thing over there either.

I'm just wondering if it's all that different there.

 

[Clay Diggins]

I am going to tell you some things you don't want to hear but I think it is important for everyone to know. You need to read the language of the antiquities act and the laws regarding use of public lands in Arizona or whatever US state you are hunting in. I hunt the Arizona Mexico boarder a couple of times a year and have learned to be very careful about where I hunt and what I hunt for where. In AZ you have land belonging to the BLM, the US forrest service, the State land trust, the national parks, and national monuments. According to the antiquities act you cannot hunt for relics over 50 years old on any of these. Even an old nail is considered to be an infraction if it is older than 50 years and in your pouch. You can prospect for gold on BLM and Forrest service land if it is not claimed land but again do not pick up your trash or you may be subject to arrest. State land trust land is a no go, you can carry your detector across it but do not get caught using it. On national monuments you can have it packed up in your car but do not dare take it out. So where can you legally hunt? We are talking relics here. On private land thats it and even so there are laws concerning that to so know what is what and take your own risks. In two weeks I will be in England hunting the fields of Essex and complying with all their laws and regulations. that in my opinion is the only country in the world that regulates their detectorists in a civilized manner. GOD SAVE THE QUEEN

YOU need to read the law. There is no such thing as a 50 year old prohibition and trash is nowhere protected in the law no matter how old it is. Arrowheads found on the surface, coins and mining are exempt from the Antiquities Act. READ the actual law and stop trying to spread fear among your fellow detectorists.

 

[Qball]

Code of Federal Regulations, 36 CFR 261.9: "The following are prohibited: (g) digging in, excavating, disturbing, injuring, destroying, or in any way damaging any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resources, structure, site, artifact, or property. (h) Removing any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resources, structure, site, artifact, property." (Historic means older than 50 years.). https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprd3840675.pdf

 

[Clay Diggins]

Code of Federal Regulations, 36 CFR 261.9: "The following are prohibited: (g) digging in, excavating, disturbing, injuring, destroying, or in any way damaging any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resources, structure, site, artifact, or property. (h) Removing any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resources, structure, site, artifact, property." (Historic means older than 50 years.). https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprd3840675.pdf

That is not a law. It's not even the text of 36 CFR 261.9

It's from a 1995 Forest Service handout about hobby detecting in Fishlake National Forest in Utah.

Like I said - read the law.

 

[CRUSADER]

And in our country, there is a statute of limitations on most non-felony "crimes". Not reporting a treasure trove can't possibly be a felony, so they never should have pursued it 14 years after the fact.

Thanks for the interesting debate but I feel I have gone why off discussion now. My main point on this one was not who had the better Laws & how badly they implement them & we implement they badly. It was how we can improve our relations with the Archies. Which is needed, because we as a hobby can be wiped out if we are not careful.

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

Please let me apologize for the late response to all of your reply's to my post, I have been out-of-town attending a family wedding this past weekend.

See the bottom of this reply, as I will add additional pictures I took at the site showing the Arkies progress from last week.

Thanks again for all of your thoughts in regard to this matter,

Dave

I had a bad experience with an Arkie in an old ghost town in Arizona a few years ago. I and a friend had gone back to do some detecting at this place that has been trashed with newer garbage. Our club had an outing here the week before and the club had permission for the outing. This person was in civilian clothes with no ID and was telling us this was an active site which it wasn't as we had been going there for several years and never saw any Arkies. He made us empty a bucket of newer trash that we were going to get rid of and said we had to leave and could be arrested. I made him go back to his vehicle to show us ID and then I showed him mine and invited him to come to our club to give a talk on what we could and couldn't detect. He never contacted anyone in the club and never showed up. I never saw him again.

This is a good example of how these guys sometimes cross the line of being a preservationist of history to the guy just being a bully John.
Kudos to you for inviting him to come to our club to give a talk on what we could and couldn't detect.
Dave

We can only change these out-dated opinions by working together. Creating divisions will harm our hobby more than their careers, so we have to make the most effort. We work with many open-mined Archies, but there are still many closed minded ones. They learn from us, as we learn from them. So if their reports are hard to get hold of, working with them gets that information. Although I'm not sure how easy that is on your side of the pond. Over here its fairly easy to volunteer our services, free of change & with keeping nothing. This is the compromise that build trust. As we know there are bad Archies & plenty of bad detectorists as well, which one will you be?

Thank you for your response Cru. Having followed your posts here on Tnet for the past 8 years I know that you and your Dad work closely with local historical societies and and archeologists in England and I commend you guys for this. You're also correct in your assumption that here in North America archeologists pretty much keep us locals in the dark to what they're doing and what they find at sites like this one. What is currently considered to be of historical importance is Native American settlement here in Canada. So the fact that the Arkies are really going to town on this site makes me wonder why this site is being studied so thoroughly.

I'm hoping to stop be there later this morning on my way to work to chat with one of the workers onsite.

Cheers,
Dave

Nice dig.Congrats

Thanks rook.
Dave

Sorry for the Arkie problems but congrats on your finds! Must have been someone important in the history of Ontario to go to all that trouble to unearth the foundation of the home and now, possibly the barn. Maybe the Developer knows what the Arkies are up to and might just spill the beans if you have a nice conversation with him or her.

I completely agree with your theory that the original settler of this site must have been someone of local importance to have this much attention paid to the site. It's standard practice and the law here in Ontario for a property developer to contract an archeological company to do an assessment of any site scheduled for commercial or residential development. The majority of these contracted archeological digs involve the Arkies digging a series of 2' x 2' test pits approximately 18'' - 24' in depth. They when sift the soil and record the finds. But what they're ding here is a full on dig of an early homestead site a mile north of the original settelment village.

Thank you for your thoughts,
Dave

I'm sorry to hear about the professional tomb raiders pillaging your spot. I was wondering if they excavated any outhouse pits? With the ground opened up and location of larger structures revealed you might be able to easily find and dig out the hopefully bottle-laden privy pits. My understanding is that rural pits generally contained less than in towns since they had lots of options for discarding trash, but I'd still try. Back in school I was doing some research on the excavations done at Abraham Lincoln's residence in Springfield IL, and learned that they had not dug the privies or the filled-in well deeper than 3 feet, and in the well they were finding lots of 1850s items that were surely deposited by the Lincolns. The decision to ignore such resources has always baffled me.

I just found the problem fellas

This is a great thought Plumb, I never thought about there being a privy here. Any time I detected this site it was either before the crops were planted in the spring or following the harvest in the fall. I always knew where the house and barn were located do to the indications on the ground and where they finds were made. I don't think these guys are too concerned with finding the privy, but I might just ask them when I get onsite later this morning.

Thanks very much,
Dave

Maybe find out which group the Arkies are?

I had at one time some documents/paper books of archaeological digs in the Eastern U.S.A. , and more exciting ,one from sites about ten minutes from me regarding Native mounds.
The local activities were places I have known of and left alone ,and one a Native used to tell me about his sifting river sand below.
The guy in charge of the research and the group involved was named ,plus photo's and info.
It was a college group.

Knowing who and when allowed research beyond the material I had.
Dates were so long ago I did not attempt to make contact with any one involved ,but the college may well have archived info to review. I did find some related info online through knowing who was involved..
Time passing is required to get stuff published ,but also seems to loosen reluctance to share info....

I don't look for recent data from/in Canada ,but historically have found there are some solid records. Not a haphazard attitude of history there so to speak.
The right people approached with the right attitude might lead to archived data. Stating ones-self as being a detectorist might not be as productive as being curios about a regions history.....Unless some one bemoans the fact they could use one. L.o.l..
The site in the o.p. will likely have a great lag time before being it's findings are released. But learning who is behind the dig could open windows to other sites data in the meantime?

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us WP.
It sounds like you're just as passionate as I am about the preservation of local history.
Dave

tell him your an Arkie also

I've come to realize that these guys don't like detectorists, nor do they have a sense of humor!
Dave

Funny this should come up on the forum today. Had a conversation with an archie today.....he was of the opinion that we were all looters....crazy

Sorry to hear your negative run in with the Arkie jdsly.

The Arkie who called me 'A Thief of History', also told me "that they'll get to all the sites eventually"... my response was "there's no way this would actually happen".
Dave

I worked at a coal mine in Missouri. Before mining could take place the Arkies had to do a study of the site to make sure there was no lost Native articles. If they found some (arrowheads etc.), then they had to do a more in depth study, sometimes delaying the operation for years.
They approved an area of maybe 400 acres. The top 2 feet of topsoil was put in one pile, 2 foot of subsoil removed and put into another pile. When reclamation came and the topsoil was being put back, it was moved with 3 big earth movers and a D8 dozer to push them to help them load. The dozer operator had time between cycles and one day looked out on his tracks and saw a 4 or 5 inch arrowhead. He got it and walked around while waiting for the earth movers to come back and found a couple more. For several weeks he did this between cycles and found on some days half a lunch pail full.
The Arkies miss some I guess. Good luck yall.

Thanks very much for your response here uglymailman... I just love your avatar name.
There's no way the Arkie's can recover everything from a site, this is why I'm going back to the other site where they've finished sifting following the bean harvest.
I'm sure there's more to be found there.
Dave

Congratualtions on the finds, sorry for the lost site.

I have worked with many "Archies" over the years most are very nice some are well you know...!

Kudos to you having worked in collaboration with many "Archies" over the years Professor.
I do understand that they preform a service that is needed everywhere in the world to better understand those that came before us.
My only complaint, if it is a complaint, is the lack of respect we get and that all detectorists get painted with the same brush as being a 'Thief of History'.
Dave

I am going to tell you some things you don't want to hear but I think it is important for everyone to know. You need to read the language of the antiquities act and the laws regarding use of public lands in Arizona or whatever US state you are hunting in. I hunt the Arizona Mexico boarder a couple of times a year and have learned to be very careful about where I hunt and what I hunt for where. In AZ you have land belonging to the BLM, the US forrest service, the State land trust, the national parks, and national monuments. According to the antiquities act you cannot hunt for relics over 50 years old on any of these. Even an old nail is considered to be an infraction if it is older than 50 years and in your pouch. You can prospect for gold on BLM and Forrest service land if it is not claimed land but again do not pick up your trash or you may be subject to arrest. State land trust land is a no go, you can carry your detector across it but do not get caught using it. On national monuments you can have it packed up in your car but do not dare take it out. So where can you legally hunt? We are talking relics here. On private land thats it and even so there are laws concerning that to so know what is what and take your own risks. In two weeks I will be in England hunting the fields of Essex and complying with all their laws and regulations. that in my opinion is the only country in the world that regulates their detectorists in a civilized manner. GOD SAVE THE QUEEN

I completely agree that there need to be strict laws put in place to protect history in both our countries Qball, otherwise it would be a free-for-all when it comes to detecting. This property in question where the Arkies are currently working was an old homestead site, plain and simple... my only question is, why are they investigating it so thoroughly?
Dave

Yes, it's very civilized how they take what you find, force you to sell it and then give you a cut for it. One of the many flaws of living under an antiquated monarchy system.

We have true freedom in this country. You find it, you keep it or do whatever you want with it. Can't beat that!

This isn't exactly accurate Tim, please read Cru's post below on the practices of the Treasure Act in the UK.
Of course, we don't have anywhere near the amount of history they have in England, but what we do have we need to protect!
Dave

Lets put some sudo-facts behind your statement;

''They take what you find'' - This is only 1% of what I find, they don't take it, I declare it. This is because 99% of what I find I can keep (in agreement with the landowner)
''force you to sell it and then give you a cut for it'' - Of the 1% I declare, 85% of it gets disclaimed & handed back, the 15% of 1% that the Museums keep they could give me 100% of its market value, if that was my agreement with the landowner (although most default to a 50/50, but its not the Law).

So in real terms the total items the Museums keep is such a small calculation below the 1% of my total finds, its near impossible to tell you how smaller %age it is. (My figures are conservative, & the actual numbers will be even smaller, so its as factual as I can make it)

This has been so successful that the Treasure cases have gone up from 200 a year to 1200 last year. Too many to administer, they are reviewing the Law as we speak, I hope it gets even quicker to administer because that is my main concern. 18 months is too long.

Thank you for clarifying this for all of us Cru!
Dave

I have a 1930's book called "Digging in the Southwest", by archaeologist Ann Axtel Morris. She was the wife of archaeologist Earl Morris. Together they dug many famous cliff dwelling sites in the southwest. Here is a quote from archaeologist Ann:

"Archaeology...treasure hunting decently concealed under the respectable cloak of science."


Nothing has changed as far as I can see. Gary

Thank you for this Gary!
Dave

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

What's the historical significance of this site? The Ontario government is working this site and another field over from another one of your sites?
Wow, sounds like quite the budget they have! That would take a decade to do that kind of work here in Manitoba with no budget and no staff.
I'm the one out there saving sites before development only to get yelled at by the archies for not having a permit.
How old do these sites go back to? Is the property still under ownership of your permission?
Now that they scraped it down for you, go in there and hammer it!

Thanks very much for your post Muddyhandz.
In answer to your first question... this site was settled by one of the original founding families in the area. Yesterday I stopped by the site and the lead Arkie was very willing to share his knowledge of the site. I had to keep biting my tongue though, because some of his assumptions about the site were not correct. One of the Arkies even came up and explained that they feel they need to educate the public as to why they are there and why they do what they do. I did get a few of my questions answered though and I now understand why the 60+ pre-1920 coins I found all came out of the ground looking so nice. The answer is... sheep urine! From what I understand, the acidic level of sheep urine is much lower then that of cows and horses.

The Arkies also explained to me that all of the 'dark patches' in the soil surrounding the barn area were "sheep carcass burials". They told me that they had found a number of outhouses on the site and that most were relatively shallow, one was actually located 3 feet from the side of the house. The lead archeologist actually invited me to come back later in the week, if I wanted he would give me a tour of the site explaining what they'd found.

I left with a totally new opinion of these guys and they're really not all that bad. Of course, I never mentioned that I was a detectorist or that I'd already been detecting this site for four years prior to their arrival.

Thanks for your interest and best of luck to you in Manitoba,
Dave

 

[Nitric]

Thank you for posting the pictures above. It's interesting to see how and what they are doing.

I think it would be fun to be on a dig like that. Detect or an actual organized dig, both would be a blast! We have history here, but you guys have some old history there too! And probably older in some areas.

 

[huntsman53]

Thanks very much for your post Muddyhandz.
In answer to your first question... this site was settled by one of the original founding families in the area. Yesterday I stopped by the site and the lead Arkie was very willing to share his knowledge of the site. I had to keep biting my tongue though, because some of his assumptions about the site were not correct. One of the Arkies even came up and explained that they feel they need to educate the public as to why they are there and why they do what they do. I did get a few of my questions answered though and I now understand why the 60+ pre-1920 coins I found all came out of the ground looking so nice. The answer is... sheep urine! From what I understand, the acidic level of sheep urine is much lower then that of cows and horses.

The Arkies also explained to me that all of the 'dark patches' in the soil surrounding the barn area were "sheep carcass burials". They told me that they had found a number of outhouses on the site and that most were relatively shallow, one was actually located 3 feet from the side of the house. The lead archeologist actually invited me to come back later in the week, if I wanted he would give me a tour of the site explaining what they'd found.

I left with a totally new opinion of these guys and they're really not all that bad. Of course, I never mentioned that I was a detectorist or that I'd already been detecting this site for four years prior to their arrival.

Thanks for your interest and best of luck to you in Manitoba,
Dave

Good Call!!! Wouldn't want one of them to say in a deep voice, "Hand the sh&% over or else". They might say that but without knowing where each find came from in the field, the find would be of little use to them but I would bet that they would still want you to hand them over.

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

Thank you for posting the pictures above. It's interesting to see how and what they are doing.

I think it would be fun to be on a dig like that. Detect or an actual organized dig, both would be a blast! We have history here, but you guys have some old history there too! And probably older in some areas.

Thanks for your post WP.
I often think it would be kinda fun to volunteer my 'detecting' assistance/services to the Arkies.
But I can also understand how conflicted they might be with having 'A Thief of History' in their midst.

Best of luck to you and keep cool in Georgia!
Dave

Good Call!!! Wouldn't want one of them to say in a deep voice, "Hand the sh&% over or else". They might say that but without knowing where each find came from in the field, the find would be of little use to them but I would bet that they would still want you to hand them over.

Years ago I approached a group of archeologists on another site that I'd been detecting for years prior to their arrival. I had a box full of finds I'd made and offered to show them exactly where they came from, but I could tell from their expressions that they weren't impressed and didn't give a darn where I found the objects. They proceeded to completely ignore me standing there and went back to their work... I just turned around and walked away feeling like I'd been slapped in the face!

I've also detected the periphery of other archeology sites before and the Arkies never find it all. It seems the Arkies only concentrate on the main body of the site, but as we all know, early homesteaders used large sections of their land in day-to-day activities. I remember one site, and this was a huge dig for the Arkies, in the dumped soil on the edge of the site I found an 1865 US I.H. 'Fatty', half a dozen rim fire gun casings and 10+ early one-piece buttons.

I found all of these relics in less then two hours at the edge of two different sites where the Arkies had either finished their digs or had dis-guarded the topsoil.
Thanks again to everyone who posted in this thread,

Dave