The Brownie Holmes Manuscript

[Old]

Oh geez, its not like there are tons of threads to sort through.

The question is relevant. Does the ore from the matchbox, which by most accounts comes from the candle box, match the description as described in the manuscript. Visually, by volume to host, it does. To my knowledge there is no public expert analysis. A second cousin of a source close to the source says there may be one. That's a little hard to get your arms around. Still requires a leap of faith to accept.

Second question, still relevant. Do any of the other gold samples bantered about as being LDM gold match the manuscript description. No known analysis on those eithers. Dead end until some one or a bunch of some ones wants to step forward and try to actually solve the question. That would be too easy. Ever wonder why that's not done?

Manuscript discussion? Its all about spin and control of the discussion. Was then, still is now.

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi old, Well gal, all that I can sayl, is if someone is going to make jewelry out of Gold specimens, is that psychologically they will always select the best specimen

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe, no really a surprise except that I didn't expect it so soon.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Posts deleted, please do not post off topic posts in thread...

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Joe, if you have issue with rules handle it through pm per our rules, not on the forum..

 

[gollum]

Oh geez, its not like there are tons of threads to sort through.

The question is relevant. Does the ore from the matchbox, which by most accounts comes from the candle box, match the description as described in the manuscript. Visually, by volume to host, it does. To my knowledge there is no public expert analysis. A second cousin of a source close to the source says there may be one. That's a little hard to get your arms around. Still requires a leap of faith to accept.

Second question, still relevant. Do any of the other gold samples bantered about as being LDM gold match the manuscript description. No known analysis on those eithers. Dead end until some one or a bunch of some ones wants to step forward and try to actually solve the question. That would be too easy. Ever wonder why that's not done?

Manuscript discussion? Its all about spin and control of the discussion. Was then, still is now.

Old,

I believe that everybody that has had the "Candle Box Ore" jewelry tested scientifically have kept specific results to themselves. Thomas Glover was the first (that I have seen), that actually included actual testing. Even then, he only compared known samples through percentages. It did not show specific test results (as an example, google "xrf test result"). When I see something like that, we will actually have something to compare LDM Ore to. I want to see someone take an XRF Gun (X-Ray Fluorescence Gun), and get with all the people that have pieces of ore to test, then compare those results against each other. Currently those test results are being kept close to the chest by the people that paid for them.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Old,

I believe that everybody that has had the "Candle Box Ore" jewelry tested scientifically have kept specific results to themselves. Thomas Glover was the first (that I have seen), that actually included actual testing. Even then, he only compared known samples through percentages. It did not show specific test results (as an example, google "xrf test result"). When I see something like that, we will actually have something to compare LDM Ore to. I want to see someone take an XRF Gun (X-Ray Fluorescence Gun), and get with all the people that have pieces of ore to test, then compare those results against each other. Currently those test results are being kept close to the chest by the people that paid for them.

Mike

Mike,

It's only a matter of time, I believe, before this will come out.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

You are absolutely right! Like everything else in life: "TIME WILL TELL!"

Mike

 

[prospecter77]

Don't know if this has anything to do with this thread but , That looks like Smuggler Union ore in Ouray Colorado , owned by Charles Chase , , White Quartz Crystals surrounded with Gold , Thomas Walsh owned the Campbird , And the Barstow on the same Vein to the east , in the middle was the Tomboy , owned by the Rockefellers , these mines made about 25,000,000 in the late 1800's , My guess is to follow the money of the day , these mines where the reason the RR were put in along with California ,
I know where there is a good know sample of this ore for an XRF test ,

 

[prospecter77]

Waltz freighted ore for the Vulture mine along with Pauline Weaver , And what about Weaver as a source .

 

[sdcfia]

Don't know if this has anything to do with this thread but , That looks like Smuggler Union ore in Ouray Colorado , owned by Charles Chase , , White Quartz Crystals surrounded with Gold , Thomas Walsh owned the Campbird , And the Barstow on the same Vein to the east , in the middle was the Tomboy , owned by the Rockefellers , these mines made about 25,000,000 in the late 1800's , My guess is to follow the money of the day , these mines where the reason the RR were put in along with California ,
I know where there is a good know sample of this ore for an XRF test ,

P77, anyone actually familiar with the reality of gold mining in the west has likely seen numerous picture rock samples quite similar to that matchbox ore, allegedly Waltz's "lost mine" ore. The CO mines that you mentioned are typical examples. Hell, my whole drift shift and I high graded a bunch from the ten hundred level of the Idarado Mine on Red Mountain Pass in 1974 that was every bit as rich - or richer- than the matchbox. I've seen many, many similar examples in private collections all over CO, NM and CA that date to retrieval anywhere from the 1860s to 1980s from mines both well-known and prospects long forgotten. Anyone who believes that the matchbox ore can be scientifically matched to "all gold mines in the west" is delusional, as 90+% of such a "database" is obviously non-existant. Even Glover acknowledges this fact. This subject was thoroughly explored in previous discussions, but many folks eschew facts in order to keep the "legends" alive.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

SGT, no vein is constant, that is why no specific identification can be made.

 

[sdcfia]

SGT, no vein is constant, that is why no specific identification can be made.

Bingo.

 

[azdave35]

Bingo.

i've been trying to tell people that for years...they just cant get it through their heads

 

[Oroblanco]

Sdcfia wrote

<snip> Anyone who believes that the matchbox ore can be scientifically matched to "all gold mines in the west" is delusional, as 90+% of such a "database" is obviously non-existant. Even Glover acknowledges this fact. This subject was thoroughly explored in previous discussions, but many folks eschew facts in order to keep the "legends" alive.

Wow “delusional”. How insulting! I do not eschew facts to “keep legends alive”. If that were my purpose, I would be trying to encourage folks to hunt the lost Breyfogle as well as the LDM, once considered among the most famous lost mines of all. I expected better from you Steve.

Azdave35 wrote

i've been trying to tell people that for years...they just cant get it through their heads

No, it is not that someone “can’t get it through their heads” it is that you are quite mistaken in your belief and I for one disagree. I could say the exact same thing about you. In fact ore comparison HAS been used in past to identify and dis-prove claims of finding lost mines before. Ore specimens from the Amargosa mine in CA were compared to Breyfogle ore and it was an EXACT MATCH. Hence no one bothers to hunt for the lost Breyfogle mine any more. Or do you hold that comparison proved nothing and the Breyfogle remains lost?

Talk to a geologist about ore comparisons you do not have to take my word on it. Ores do vary in appearance through the vein obviously but some factors remain the same and are like fingerprints. There is a reason why the people that have claimed to have found the LDM will not get an ore comparison done. It won’t match and they know it is not the LDM. All of which has nothing to do with the Holmes manuscript, subject of this thread.

Apologies to the thread owner for posting more OFF TOPIC stuff, but had to respond to that. Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Please do continue.
Oroblanco

 

[sgtfda]

One problem. Where is the line to get the ore comparisons done. Who is allowing their Dutchman ore to be used.

 

[sdcfia]

Sdcfia wrote


Wow “delusional”. How insulting! I do not eschew facts to “keep legends alive”. If that were my purpose, I would be trying to encourage folks to hunt the lost Breyfogle as well as the LDM, once considered among the most famous lost mines of all. I expected better from you Steve.

Well, you're the one who keeps bringing up the matchbox. While the artifact is made from a nice piece of picture rock, the ore has only been alleged to have once belonged to Waltz - and regardless of the truth of that possibility, by no means has the matchbox ore been proven to have originated in the Superstition Mountains. It's spectacular, sure, but it's provenance is questionable. It could have come from any number of sources. In a logical argument, it's dead weight.

 

[azdave35]

Sdcfia wrote


Wow “delusional”. How insulting! I do not eschew facts to “keep legends alive”. If that were my purpose, I would be trying to encourage folks to hunt the lost Breyfogle as well as the LDM, once considered among the most famous lost mines of all. I expected better from you Steve.

Azdave35 wrote


No, it is not that someone “can’t get it through their heads” it is that you are quite mistaken in your belief and I for one disagree. I could say the exact same thing about you. In fact ore comparison HAS been used in past to identify and dis-prove claims of finding lost mines before. Ore specimens from the Amargosa mine in CA were compared to Breyfogle ore and it was an EXACT MATCH. Hence no one bothers to hunt for the lost Breyfogle mine any more. Or do you hold that comparison proved nothing and the Breyfogle remains lost?

Talk to a geologist about ore comparisons you do not have to take my word on it. Ores do vary in appearance through the vein obviously but some factors remain the same and are like fingerprints. There is a reason why the people that have claimed to have found the LDM will not get an ore comparison done. It won’t match and they know it is not the LDM. All of which has nothing to do with the Holmes manuscript, subject of this thread.

Apologies to the thread owner for posting more OFF TOPIC stuff, but had to respond to that. Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Please do continue.
Oroblanco

roy...i have been doing ore testing and assays for people for many years....i have many friends that are geologists and mining engineers...i know a little more than the average joe when it comes to ore samples...and i have had a few xrf analysis done on ore..they arent as accurate as you think...they will analyze the rock and tell you which minerals and metals are in it but you still have to assay to get the final answer

 

[gollum]

AZDAVE35,


XRay Fluorescence is an assay. Different types of XRF Units are more or less accurate. Are you saying you would do an XRF Test, THEN go get a fire assay? Doesn't make much sense. The proper XRF Machine will give as good a results as any Chromatographic Test. Also, fire cupellation is really an art as much as it is a science. I can take an ore sample to ten different assayers, and get different results from seven of them. When you find a good assayer, stick with'em.


Another thing is that using any type of assaying in verifying Dutchman Ore would MAINLY be to prove that the ore presented would match a different known mine, and could NOT have come from the LDM. You throw out the ones that match known mines, leaving the samples that don't match ANY known mine, then compare tem against the matchbox, cufflinks, or stick pin and see how close they are to a match. Its not rocket science.


............. and regarding Dr Glover's Tests and databases; he had those tests done in 1991. The internet has come a long way in 24 years.




Frank,


I think you know who to ask. People with samples (that I have heard about) have already had their samples tested. They are just keeping the results under their hats. I would too. HAHAHA


Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

AZ, Mike,I was an assayer. I rebuilt and calibrated a Perkins, Atomic Absorption unit. and can say that every specimen that I submitted was different, even from the same vein only a few inches apart. Interesting devices.

There was just enough difference that my Jefe (boss) could tell if I was goofing off

While I had it apart cleaning and re-calibrating it when my boss walked into the lab and instantly developed a love / hate relationship until I proved that it worked.

The thing had been unused for a few years and was dirty and UN-calibrated. I figured it was my duty to put such an expensive unit back into working condition, along with a $ 5,0000 Khan electronic assaying balance. The Khan had to be calibrated to the Latitude you were using it, it was that sensitive..

Now - a- days a $ 10 dollar Harbor freight electronic balance will work good enough for general assays.

An ERF unit has it's limits, as everything else. Even me



t.