The Knights Templar connection to Oak Island Challenge

[Dave Rishar]

Though I'm not saying they could have visited or buried anything on Oak Island, I do not consider it impossible, given good weather for the passage, for a successful voyage to somewhere else in the Americas to have taken place. Or at least an attempt to have been made, given the circumstances they faced at the time.

It was certainly not impossible to make that trip. We know for a fact that the Icelanders could make it to Greenland multiple times, and Newfoundland at least once. The Sagas suggest that they made it significantly further south than that. However, that voyage was not without risk.

A friend of mine was recently (still is) involved with the replica Viking ship the "Draken Harald Harfagre" which recently sailed from Norway to Bay City, Michigan. An open deck ship, they had their moments crossing the Atlantic in April, but were quite surprised by the ferocity of the Great Lakes. I stand by my statement, any vessel that can reliably sail the Mediterranean can sail the Atlantic. Of course cautions would be advised with any vessel, and I wouldn't make the trip in April myself!

All good points, but consider the risk management aspect of this. One position is that the Templars had something so important that they not only had to get it out of Europe, but that it would be a good idea to cross the Atlantic. That's dangerous. I can't put a percentage on the failure rate of transatlantic voyages during that era, but it was known that ships didn't always make it. If that cargo is important enough to justify the effort and expense of getting it across the Atlantic (and presumably in a giant and elaborately booby trapped hole in the ground), is it also unimportant enough that the chance of it ending up at the bottom of the ocean is acceptable?

Hell, the Atlantic has been crossed in a rowboat.

And the English Channel has been swum. However, if I need to get something important from the UK to France, swimming the channel would not be one of my plans. If it's important and it has to go to France, then it goes to France or it doesn't go at all. Getting it to the bottom of the Channel benefits nobody, least of all me. (As I will be there with it.)

Something I'm just tossing out there that seems to be missed by everyone discussing the coir. While it has been theorized that coir was used to make a french drain or as a filter to keep particles out of a french drain. It wouldn't work that way for long as it would get clogged itself.

It hasn't been missed. I've mentioned that in other threads. I'd thought that I'd mentioned it in this one too, but I seem to have been mistaken. By design, a filter clogs so that something else does not have to. I would argue that a tunnel of some sort would silt up or otherwise clog much more slowly than an unserviceable wad of coir would, and if the filter clogs then the entire thing is clogged. We use filters because they're easier to replace than pipes, but if there's no way to replace the filter then you may be better off without one.

Continue to ask the question, but do not expect a rational response.

 

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[Charlie P. (NY)]

A "rowboat" made it - but it had many water tight compartments and would bob to the surface if held 100 ft below and released. A carvel or plank built wooden ship with stone ballast? Not so much.

8 ft sailboats have transited oceans. Basically manned bobbers. Stunt craft built to survive and eventually arrive somewhere in the general vicinity of a continent.

There is a great book called "A Speck on the Ocean" about some of the small boat ocean transits. And many, many unsuccessful attempts. They also generally land low in the Eastern Atlantic when starting in Europe because the gulf stream and ocean currents and winds are against a voyage TO the Northeast US/Canadian sea coast.

 

[ECS]

It was certainly not impossible to make that trip.
We know for a fact that the Icelanders could make it to Greenland multiple times, and Newfoundland at least once.
The Sagas suggest that they made it significantly further south than that. However, that voyage was not without risk...

The Viking Icelanders had V hulls which counteracted the forces of the wind to prevent tipping, and with high gunwale longboats, not flat bottom glorified cargo barge galleys with low to the water gunwales.

 

[Al D]

Something I'm just tossing out there that seems to be missed by everyone discussing the coir. While it has been theorized that coir was used to make a french drain or as a filter to keep particles out of a french drain. It wouldn't work that way for long as it would get clogged itself.

In addition. I would never use coir in the hull of a boat. Boats were not water tight, and coir is one of the most absorbent fibers there is! I use a ridiculous amount in my green house. l am always amazed at how much and for how long it holds water, keeping things wet and heavy, if it cannot flow out over time.

I agree completely, but, the french drains were not designed to operate continuously, they only had to operate once to flood the pit and again periodically to re-flood the pit if it was attempted to be pumped out, also, knowing that they would eventually get clogged from debris in flowing water, perhaps that is why there are so many box drains.
still, there are many other ways to accomplish the same without importing exotic material from India...or wherever.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

In truth, the Scandinavians had many different ocean-going vessel shapes. The raiding versions were shallow draft and smaller/lighter/faster/beachable (langskip - long ship). Sized by the number of pairs of rowers. Some were small and lightly built to allow them to be portaged over land for miles. The cargo ships (knörr) were much deeper draft and heavier, with decks and enclosed holds.

Some of the 55 ft dragon (drakkar) boats have alarming lack of freeboard. They still had to be rowed at times. But they were light and rode above the waves instead of trying to punch through.

Hurstwic: Viking Ships

 

[ECS]

The point that seems to be ignored is that the Templars did not have in their fleet Viking V hull high gunwale vessels.

 

[somehiker]

Let alone with dragon heads at bow and stern.....
well, at least at the bow.....

 

[somehiker]

The point that seems to be ignored is that the Templars did not have in their fleet Viking V hull high gunwale vessels.

High gunwales you say ?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...ewfoundland-month-long-Atlantic-crossing.html

Yet for some reason, the crossing was described as treacherous.

 

[Al D]

Aren't you the one who just wrote that the Templars were only on Cyprus for one year?

Cheers, Loki

Lets try this again since you are too slow to understand simple english.
I stated that the Templars owned the island for one year, I did not state anything about how long a Templar may or may not have been on the island.

 

[Al D]

The Templar fleet was never based in Cyprus, actual fact; the Templars owned the island for less than one year before a revolt by the people who lived there caused the Templars to give the island back to King Richard.

Here is my original post, but you know that don’t you Laky? because you still mis quote me.
I am beginning to see now what you are all about

 

[Dave Rishar]

A "rowboat" made it - but it had many water tight compartments and would bob to the surface if held 100 ft below and released. A carvel or plank built wooden ship with stone ballast? Not so much.

8 ft sailboats have transited oceans. Basically manned bobbers. Stunt craft built to survive and eventually arrive somewhere in the general vicinity of a continent.

There is a great book called "A Speck on the Ocean" about some of the small boat ocean transits. And many, many unsuccessful attempts. They also generally land low in the Eastern Atlantic when starting in Europe because the gulf stream and ocean currents and winds are against a voyage TO the Northeast US/Canadian sea coast.

A good summary. And as you pointed out, we think of someone crossing the Atlantic in a rowboat to be worthy of discussion for the reasons that you mention - because it was dangerous. I'm quite sure that if we put enough people on enough inner tubes and cut them loose, one or two of them would survive the trip. I wouldn't bet money on any particular participant making it though.

I agree completely, but, the french drains were not designed to operate continuously, they only had to operate once to flood the pit and again periodically to re-flood the pit if it was attempted to be pumped out, also, knowing that they would eventually get clogged from debris in flowing water, perhaps that is why there are so many box drains.

Many box drains, which will all eventually clog if enough pumping is done, assuming that the did not clog earlier to sand movement or marine growth.

It still seems to me that hiding something valuable and not leaving obvious clues that something might be buried would be a better option overall. And it would be a lot less work. And there would be far fewer people involved in it, meaning that there would be far fewer people around to talk about it.

The point that seems to be ignored is that the Templars did not have in their fleet Viking V hull high gunwale vessels.

One of the Templar theories circulating in these parts is that the Templars recruited Nordic sailors and ships. I'm not sold on that, but it's worth putting out there for discussion and dissection.

 

[ECS]

...
One of the Templar theories circulating in these parts is that the Templars recruited Nordic sailors and ships. I'm not sold on that, but it's worth putting out there for discussion and dissection.

On what are these theories based, as there is NO documented evidence that the Templars ever crossed the Atlantic to Nova Scotia , much less to Oak Island to dig a deep hole to hide an alleged treasure?
What were the means, motive, and motivation for the Templars to set out on this alleged perilous voyage in 13th century vessels?

 

[Dave Rishar]

This is not my theory, but I've argued against it for quite some time now. Templar theorists are welcome to step in if I have something wrong, and apologies in advance if I screw something up.

On what are these theories based, as there is NO documented evidence that the Templars ever crossed the Atlantic to Nova Scotia , much less to Oak Island to dig a deep hole to hide an alleged treasure?

Coconut fibers in Oak Island. I believe that this is about it for concrete, verifiable evidence. I've argued (mostly unsuccessfully) that this proves nothing other than the existence of coconut fibers on Oak Island.

What were the means, motive, and motivation for the Templars to set out on this alleged perilous voyage in 13th century vessels?

I'll let one of them explain that. It's a bit convoluted.

 

[ECS]

...
Coconut fibers in Oak Island. I believe that this is about it for concrete, verifiable evidence. I've argued (mostly unsuccessfully) that this proves nothing other than the existence of coconut fibers on Oak Island...

...but how can it be determined to be genuine Templar coconut fibers?
Did someone find a burlap croaker sack with identifying lettering:
de MOLAY BROS.
TEMPLAR BRAND
100% COIR

 

[Dave Rishar]

...but how can it be determined to be genuine Templar coconut fibers?

I'm not sure that it can be.

Did someone find a burlap croaker sack with identifying lettering:
de MOLAY BROS.
TEMPLAR BRAND
100% COIR

If they did, that does not definitively prove that Templars put it there.

I'm personally more interested in just how much coconut fiber is there, and whether it's from Atlantic or Pacific coconuts. A little context would go a long way in figuring out how it got there. (Or how it didn't get there!)

 

[ECS]

...or if the coconut coir fibers matter at all.

 

[Dave Rishar]

...or if the coconut coir fibers matter at all.

Oh, they matter. That's not the sort of thing that I'd expect to find in that part of the world. I'm honestly curious about them.

 

[gazzahk]

Oh, they matter. That's not the sort of thing that I'd expect to find in that part of the world. I'm honestly curious about them.

According to the sample on display at the Maritime Museum of the Atlantic which were taken from the money pit area the coconut fibers are from the Caribbean area.




(Picture taken from J.Steele- Oak Island Mystery Solved)

 

[ECS]

That should close the Templar coir from the middle east speculation.
The next question is exactly how much coir was found on Oak Island?

 

[franklin]

That should close the Templar coir from the middle east speculation.
The next question is exactly how much coir was found on Oak Island?

Not really. The coconuts were introduced into the Caribbean by explorers in the 16th Century. The coconut fibers from Oak Island at least during two test date to the 14 Century. So the Coconut Fibers had to be transported there from the Mediterranean Sea or from the Orient. Since no one else was suppose to be over in America before CC in 1492 how did the Coconut Fibers get over here almost 200 years before CC?