markmar
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The Lost Doc Thorne Mine - was it the same mine of Jacob Waltz?
- Thread starter Oroblanco
- Start date
pippinwhitepaws
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OMG> is this a twilight zone episode?
markmar
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cactusjumper
Gold Member
FEMF,
I will post an exact copy of the original tonight.
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=119635&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1332656028
Take care,
Joe
Last edited:
OP
OP
Oroblanco
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cactusjumper wrote
Your post was,
Cactusjumper wrote earlier
I did not presume that it came from the Bark notes but should have. Thank you. I have found my original note on the 12 foot depth figure, but not where it was found. It appears this was one of my earliest notes, and I did not think much of it at that time. <Did find an interesting old article clip on the Raspberry mine dating to 1877 though, which proves to me that even looking and not finding what we are looking for, often turns up goodies in one form or another.> When I first looked for the LDM, I had in mind the huge funnel shaped pit, a small army of peons working it, etc, and info that seemed to clash with that I did not give much weight.
Have to agree with our mutual amigo Cubfan that it was within the realm of possibility that the Petrasches knew Waltz. I still have doubts that Pete ever saw what was in the candlebox, which was Waltz's 'cache' gold after all, possibly not even dug up from its hiding place until shortly before or shortly after going to stay with Julia.
Pippinwhitepaws wrote
I don't know of any solid proof that the Pit mine was Spanish or Mexican or Indian, however some bits of evidence did turn up at the Mormon Stope at Goldfield which was believed to be the property of the Peraltas when it was found, including a crow bar with initials. The old arrastras down by the Salt river, the various evidence found in the Superstitions by different persons like sandals stashed in a cave, mule shoes, etc indicate that some kind of activity was being done in the range prior to becoming US property.
As to who or whom was there - this gets into a very grey zone in my opinion. For example, Pima Indians, we consider to be Indians, yet many of them spoke Spanish and would dress as Mexicans, and many were considered Mexicans by Anglo pioneers. How we could make a clear definition by blood is not clear to me either - some Indians could be classed as Mexicans, and vice-versa, for a fair number of Mexicans are really Indian by blood, but over time became completely Hispanicized in speech, education, lifestyle and dress.
Also on this point (identifying a mine as Spanish by absolute proof) I think it is much more difficult than some may think; many early Anglo prospectors/miners followed pretty much the identical mining practices of Spanish and Mexicans, including the use of simple arrastras for crushing ore. Those simple methods were useful (and to a degree one could argue, still worth knowing how to do today) and did not require importing a lot of costly machinery and expensive explosives. It is easier to differentiate the camps or living sites, as the Anglos invariably left more junk, but even so, keep in mind that Spanish, Mexicans, Anglos and Indians might all have Indian pottery and other supplies purchased or traded from Indians and vice versa.
One other thing - I am not the first to think that the funnel-pit is not the same mine as the straight mine shaft; Walt Gassler came to that conclusion before his death, noticing the striking differences in descriptions, nor was Gassler the only Dutch hunter to arrive at the conclusion.
Pippinwhitepaws wrote
Yes amigo, you crossed over into it when you took your first step into the desert, looking for a lost treasure or mine. There is no way back.
Springfield wrote
Ore would have had to come from a mine right? Logically that mine would not be located far to the south into Old Mexico too right? I don't understand how we can seal up a lost mine story, with a cache of gold ore to explain it away. The gold ore came from a mine, and that is at the root of a lost mine story. If it were a lost cache story, I hold that it would evolve as a lost cache or treasure story, and if a cache of ore the ore came from a mine. Or am I way off in left field to think that gold ore must come from a gold mine originally?
Good luck and good hunting amigos, thank you for your replies, and I look forward to reading more.
Oroblanco
Your post was,
Cactusjumper wrote earlier
I did not presume that it came from the Bark notes but should have. Thank you. I have found my original note on the 12 foot depth figure, but not where it was found. It appears this was one of my earliest notes, and I did not think much of it at that time. <Did find an interesting old article clip on the Raspberry mine dating to 1877 though, which proves to me that even looking and not finding what we are looking for, often turns up goodies in one form or another.> When I first looked for the LDM, I had in mind the huge funnel shaped pit, a small army of peons working it, etc, and info that seemed to clash with that I did not give much weight.
Have to agree with our mutual amigo Cubfan that it was within the realm of possibility that the Petrasches knew Waltz. I still have doubts that Pete ever saw what was in the candlebox, which was Waltz's 'cache' gold after all, possibly not even dug up from its hiding place until shortly before or shortly after going to stay with Julia.
Pippinwhitepaws wrote
I don't know of any solid proof that the Pit mine was Spanish or Mexican or Indian, however some bits of evidence did turn up at the Mormon Stope at Goldfield which was believed to be the property of the Peraltas when it was found, including a crow bar with initials. The old arrastras down by the Salt river, the various evidence found in the Superstitions by different persons like sandals stashed in a cave, mule shoes, etc indicate that some kind of activity was being done in the range prior to becoming US property.
As to who or whom was there - this gets into a very grey zone in my opinion. For example, Pima Indians, we consider to be Indians, yet many of them spoke Spanish and would dress as Mexicans, and many were considered Mexicans by Anglo pioneers. How we could make a clear definition by blood is not clear to me either - some Indians could be classed as Mexicans, and vice-versa, for a fair number of Mexicans are really Indian by blood, but over time became completely Hispanicized in speech, education, lifestyle and dress.
Also on this point (identifying a mine as Spanish by absolute proof) I think it is much more difficult than some may think; many early Anglo prospectors/miners followed pretty much the identical mining practices of Spanish and Mexicans, including the use of simple arrastras for crushing ore. Those simple methods were useful (and to a degree one could argue, still worth knowing how to do today) and did not require importing a lot of costly machinery and expensive explosives. It is easier to differentiate the camps or living sites, as the Anglos invariably left more junk, but even so, keep in mind that Spanish, Mexicans, Anglos and Indians might all have Indian pottery and other supplies purchased or traded from Indians and vice versa.
One other thing - I am not the first to think that the funnel-pit is not the same mine as the straight mine shaft; Walt Gassler came to that conclusion before his death, noticing the striking differences in descriptions, nor was Gassler the only Dutch hunter to arrive at the conclusion.
Pippinwhitepaws wrote
Yes amigo, you crossed over into it when you took your first step into the desert, looking for a lost treasure or mine. There is no way back.
Springfield wrote
Ore would have had to come from a mine right? Logically that mine would not be located far to the south into Old Mexico too right? I don't understand how we can seal up a lost mine story, with a cache of gold ore to explain it away. The gold ore came from a mine, and that is at the root of a lost mine story. If it were a lost cache story, I hold that it would evolve as a lost cache or treasure story, and if a cache of ore the ore came from a mine. Or am I way off in left field to think that gold ore must come from a gold mine originally?
Good luck and good hunting amigos, thank you for your replies, and I look forward to reading more.
Oroblanco
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cactusjumper
Gold Member
Marius,
The Fish Map was said to be originally drawn by Don Pedro Peralta. He drew two maps and gave one each to his brothers, Ramon and Manuel. If the story is true, the one that Frank had was, likely, Manuel's.
The copy I posted was traced from the original map by my Uncle Chuck. To learn the story, find a copy of "Dead Men Do Tell Tales" by Lake Erie Schaefer. She and my uncle were good friends, and she wrote the book from the diary of Frank T. Fish.
It's highly unlikely that you will be able to find a copy.
Good luck,
Joe Ribaudo
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somehiker
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Original Fish Map
View attachment Fish Map 1.bmp
IMO the signature at the bottom is " Juan de Peralta "
View attachment Fish Map 1.bmp
IMO the signature at the bottom is " Juan de Peralta "
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Springfield
Silver Member
Your logic is impeccable, Oro, but now comes the curve ball. I like the Hollywood theatrics of Dr. Thorne's blindfolded trip to the secret canyon, but what if Spring's alleged 1870 interview is closer to the truth?
In Spring's alleged 1876 diary anecdote, Thorne stumbled upon a significant placer deposit during his lengthy period as a captive of the Apaches in the 1850's. Thorne eventually escapes his captivity ca 1860 and settles at Lemitar, NM. After a couple unsuccessful attempts to return to the placer canyon, Thorne abandons the project and lives out his remaining years as a physician in Lemitar, which is confirmed by public records.
The 'blindfold' version places Thorne in the Army at Ft. McDowell, his gold canyon in the Superstitions and identifies his gold as high-grade ore. No documentation has surfaced to confirm that Thorne was a military physician. As you say, Thorne's elusive high grade gold and the Superstition Mountain venue seems to be a natural link to other similar-sounding stories in that area - if this version is true.
Now, if Spring's is the correct telling, then Thorne's placer canyon sounds more like Adams' 1864 placer canyon. In fact, the Spring version contains a number of odd similarities to some of the Lost Adams stories: a group of Californians traveling through the Pima Villages; an Apache massacre leaving two survivors; a canyon containing large quantities of placer gold; A.M. Tenney's famous LAD tale in which Brewer escapes to the Rio Grande at ... Lemitar!
roadrunner
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Springfield.
Here is a shot of some wagon tracks made by the ore wagons hauling silver ore through caliche.
Caliche when wet becomes soft. Not soft like mushy,but softer than in its original state.
I took this pic last week hiking with my wife.
Here is a shot of some wagon tracks made by the ore wagons hauling silver ore through caliche.
Caliche when wet becomes soft. Not soft like mushy,but softer than in its original state.
I took this pic last week hiking with my wife.
somehiker
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Matt:
What made the ruts....
View attachment ore wagons.bmp
The ruts in Mitch Waite's photos are from a much smaller wagon, with narrower wheels and a 42" track.
Maybe something like this....
What made the ruts....
View attachment ore wagons.bmp
The ruts in Mitch Waite's photos are from a much smaller wagon, with narrower wheels and a 42" track.
Maybe something like this....
somehiker
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This is all probably old news to the aficionados, but I found this short video interesting, especially the ruts. Ironically, wagon-wheel ruts worn into rocks (or what appear to be so), IMO, may be more of a message than they are genuine - at least in some cases, one of which I've seen in New Mexico. It might be useful to plot these ruts' location and evaluate their position in relation to other map nodes in the Superstitions.
A shot from the same area....
looking southward
Cubfan64
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markmar
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Marius,
The Fish Map was said to be originally drawn by Don Pedro Peralta. He drew two maps and gave one each to his brothers, Ramon and Manuel. If the story is true, the one that Frank had was, likely, Manuel's.
The copy I posted was traced from the original map by my Uncle Chuck. To learn the story, find a copy of "Dead Men Do Tell Tales" by Lake Erie Schaefer. She and my uncle were good friends, and she wrote the book from the diary of Frank T. Fish.
It's highly unlikely that you will be able to find a copy.
Good luck,
Joe Ribaudo
Joe
So , the origin was from Peraltas and the map shows Weaver's Needle area . Is the proof which you wanted . So simple .
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Marius,
The map was said to have come from the Peralta family in Mexico. That is not proof. Frank Fish had been prospecting in the Superstitions, without finding anything, prior to his claim of acquiring the map.
You, my friend, are working at a distinct disadvantage......IMHO. Having never set foot in the area you are theorizing about, and only using Google Earth, as well as not being well read in the legends , you are looking for the proverbial needle in the haystack......so to speak.
We can trace the Fish Map only as far back as Frank Fish......using Lake Erie Schaefer as the only living source after Frank died.
The area that it shows has been searched by many, over many decades, including my family and myself. By, no doubt, a complete coincidence, there is an X just north of Weaver's Needle, which is shown on the Stone Maps, at least as I have laid it out.
Good luck,
Joe
markmar
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Springfield
Silver Member
Runner, I've seen a lot of similar wagon ruts cut like the one you showed. The Army's wood wagons supplying Fort Bayard created many of them ca 1870/1920, and, like yours, are parallel ruts cut into fairly soft material. Below are what seems to be a wagon-rut road, but what I believe is a manufactured sign instead. Why? Because these aren't 'ruts', but instead a wagon-wide channel cut through a rock outcropping. The Army's nearby road avoided this spot, which predated their arrival, in lieu of easier terrain. However, more importantly, this cut is positioned at a very specific location that is a node in a geometrical pattern of other signs and landmarks that cannot be a coincidence. The 'road cut' is within 10 feet of being exactly on the 10.7 mile eastern line of the triangle. Turn a 90 degree angle from there and you are delivered to an exceptional petroglyph panel. I normally don't give this stuff for free, but in your case I'll make an exception. Ha ha. The point is that sometimes a marker may appear to be something else - hidden in plain sight, as they say.
Cubfan64
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Marius,
The map was said to have come from the Peralta family in Mexico. That is not proof. Frank Fish had been prospecting in the Superstitions, without finding anything, prior to his claim of acquiring the map.
You, my friend, are working at a distinct disadvantage......IMHO. Having never set foot in the area you are theorizing about, and only using Google Earth, as well as not being well read in the legends , you are looking for the proverbial needle in the haystack......so to speak.
We can trace the Fish Map only as far back as Frank Fish......using Lake Erie Schaefer as the only living source after Frank died.
The area that it shows has been searched by many, over many decades, including my family and myself. By, no doubt, a complete coincidence, there is an X just north of Weaver's Needle, which is shown on the Stone Maps, at least as I have laid it out.
Good luck,
Joe
Technically speaking, I think Marius wins this one Joe. You didn't say you hadn't seen a map proven to have come from the Peralta family in Mexico, you just said you had never seen a map signed by Peraltas. The Fish map (whether authentic or not) definitely has a Peralta signature. The problem is it's unlikely anyone will ever be able to prove it really was signed by a Peralta, while at the same time it's unlikely anyone will ever be able to prove it wasn't.
That's the nature of treasure hunting - if it was provable and easy, anyone could do it
.
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markmar
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Marius,
The map was said to have come from the Peralta family in Mexico. That is not proof. Frank Fish had been prospecting in the Superstitions, without finding anything, prior to his claim of acquiring the map.
You, my friend, are working at a distinct disadvantage......IMHO. Having never set foot in the area you are theorizing about, and only using Google Earth, as well as not being well read in the legends , you are looking for the proverbial needle in the haystack......so to speak.
We can trace the Fish Map only as far back as Frank Fish......using Lake Erie Schaefer as the only living source after Frank died.
The area that it shows has been searched by many, over many decades, including my family and myself. By, no doubt, a complete coincidence, there is an X just north of Weaver's Needle, which is shown on the Stone Maps, at least as I have laid it out.
Good luck,
Joe
Joe
Wait a minute ! The map has a Peralta signature and shows area in Superstitions , and is not proof how they were there ? And because Fish didn't find something , this neutralize the map ?
Joe , you just don't know to lose . Your words show your panic . You have nothing against me . Only your delirium about my presence in the Superstitions .
BTW , your theory about the stone tablets and your alleged trail , are far from the real Stone trail map . You have just this wrong theory and nothing else . Keep your nerves away and read to learn about LDM and other stuff .
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pippinwhitepaws
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