the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

[ivan salis]

the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

you see the state of florida has a "legal" problem on their hands -- they set up an old "catch 22" .

the state of florida was REQUIRING that you have a "state approved archie" to sign on to do your project to get your permits to do work --- and to be a "state approved archie" --the state REQUIRED the archie to belong to a group who as part of their creed states that members will not work with or for people who "sell artifacts " thus they will not "sign on" to any for profeit salvors projects --

no " state approved archie" = no permit ---- very neat and tidy strangle hold

well all for profeit salvors "sell artifacts" -- the selling of their finds is how they pay their bills plain and simple -- thus the state set up an "impossible" permitting system in effect putting the treasure salvor "out of bussiness" -- thus the state has not issued any "new" permits in YEARS , due to good old "catch 22"

this finally has lead to someone pointing out to the state --a few months ago --- the highly illegal nature of the "catch 22" set up and the state wized up rather than get taken to court over it.

there are several serious "flaws" in the "preposed" new rules --- like the "impossible to get "approved archie rule" as well as if there is a possiblity of any human remains that can bar permits --shipwrecks by their very nature COULD POSSIBLY always have a bit of remains -- but its vey rare the oceans waste very little and converts bodies to food rather rapidly in most cases---another is the "proper funding" --who is to say what amount is enought --5 million --10 million --20 million --100 million --it need to be spelled out clearly to remove the "whim" factor so that you can easily show that you are "qualified" and that you know what you need to get your permits --rather than having to beg and hope they "like you" and issue you a permit -- the permitting process needs to be easy to understand , fair and done in a timely manner

http://flheritage.com/archaeology/rule/ heres the link --tell them you support the rights of treasure hunters tomake a honest living and support easy to understand and workible permit process -- not these deeply flawed rules they suggest --thanks Ivan

 

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[Salvor6]

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

The Dept. of Historical Resources should be sued anyway. The damage has already been done!

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

This is all true Ivan, but there is also Jim Sinclair, a well known and well educated shipwreck archaeologist. He is approved to work as a project archaeologist in the state of Florida, and is available to Treasure Hunters. It's not just an archaeologist's signature that is stopping things, it is also the DEP, Army COE, and sometimes the federal EPA.

 

[mad4wrecks]

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

The state of Florida requires that all shipwreck salvors employ the use of an RPA certified archaeologist in their operations.

At the same time, the RPA is now demanding that archaeologists in their organization cannot work with groups that profit from the sale of artifacts.

That is what Ivan is trying to say. It is a big mess and has put some very ethical, degreed and open minded archaeologists in a tough spot.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Look what they have done to the red snapper fisherman ,and the srimpers over the yrs.I say finders ,keepers

 

[ScubaDude]

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

There is a lot more to this than just the Archaeologist issues.

The state has issued new exploration leases in the last several years.

While I've heard the no salvage leases comment over and over, I am curious who actually applied and what the results were.

What is their annual budget Vs. the private sector?

Like it or not, this profession is going to involve more parental supervision and cooperation in the future if it is to move forward.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Brad, HRD and Heartland Treasure Quest have both applied and have both been denied. HRD for lack of sufficient proof that they had found a shipwreck, and Heartland was denied because they didn't finish the job. HRD's deal was subject to personal interpretation of "what constitutes a shipwreck site". Sure they had artifacts, but not enough to impress the state apparently.

Heartland wisely made their deal in advance with the state...in writing. The deal was very clear cut, and they had a LARGE exploration lease to work. They agreed to do a bathymetric survey of their exploration lease while looking for their wreck. Problem is, when they found the wreck, they decided that they didn't have to complete the survey of the rest of the box. The state would not give them a salvage lease until they completed the terms of the agreement, and finished the survey. Rex Stocker went out on a limb (a very thin and unstable limb) and wrote to Ryan Wheeler's boss asking why the state was not working with him, and what it would take to get some competent people in there to do the job. Ryan and Roger were shown this letter, and Rex is now fighting a loosing battle. Other than those two, I'm not aware of anyone else applying for a salvage lease.

Mad4Wrecks, Jim Sinclair was grandfathered into that clause. Jim is not a member of the RPA, yet he IS on the list of approved archaeologists for the state of Florida, and he is available to work with salvors here in Florida and abroad. This information comes from the state offices recently, so if you've heard differently I'd like to know from where so we can add it to our list of things to discuss at the meeting next week.

Jason

 

[ivan salis]

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

great we got one grandfathered archie ( thank god we have him too) but how many folks need archies to do work ? -- one guy is not enough come on think about -- the system is clearly flawed .

 

[Zephyr]

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Somebody needs to whisper to the right people "pssst, the state could have made a lot of money from the recovery of sunken treasure, but it's not being allowed..."
Sometimes you just have to appeal to the politicians' baser instincts ....

 

[FISHEYE]

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage pro

The state doesnt need any money from treasure.They have all the money from the state lottery!The public was scammed into thinking that the money would go for education.

 

[ivan salis]

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

its not about what "the state" actually needs its about want what the state [politicians] want -- all politicains alway want "control" over more money -- because control of money is power and more money to control = more power -- appealing to greed and self interest seldom hurts when politics is invovled, first rule is to say TO them --make sure to say "and this is how it BENEFITS YOU."-- and be ready to show them how.

oh the lotto money does go to ed --- they just cut out all the prop tax money that used to go to education dollar for dollar(money that used to all go to schools) rather than give both the lotto and the "normal" tax money as folks though they would --- thus by "subbing" out they in effect get the same amount of money the lotto takes in to play with --without having to raise taxes to get it since the suckers pay "taxes" every time they play-- nice huh?

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Nice indeed Ivan....and I never said the system wasn't flawed, just trying to inject some FACTS in between the archaeologist bashing. I've gotten to know several of them through the Fisher Museum, and for the most part, they are a good group of guys. If you read their job description for their appointed positions...a sumarized version would read PROTECT THE ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITES. That is their job, and unfortunately they have protected them from everyone....even the ones who are educated, equipped, and funded to do the job properly.

I think they see this fact, and are trying (not to start open season on historic shipwrecks) but to open the doors to reputable salvors who are willing and capable of doing things the right way. I hope that is what we see at the meeting, and I've heard that this is what we should expect. If we do see that, then we can start moving towards new wrecks....if we don't, nobody will be screaming louder than me. LOL

Jason

 

[ivan salis]

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

heck I'm more than happy to work with folks -- cuz thats the way money is made -- by work -- no work = no cash flow -- thats just the way it is -- everything has to "pay its way" these days -- and the days of depts not making money when they can are over --- because funding must come from somewhere --- we the salvage folks will be happy to make money for them -- via permits and the "states cut" of finds and by keep archies working on projects --- the time has come fiscally that the state can not afford to keep 300 of the same type of coin just sitting locked up in a vault however --- common items (like silver and gold coins) that are not unique one of kind items need to be spread out by selling them of there are several of them --- oh I'm not saying they sould not have say 10 or 12 coins of a type to use for "loaners" or disply items -- I'm just saying 300 silver 8 reale 1715 coins from the mexico mint --- might be a bit much to just to sitting around "on hand" in a vault. ---the state by using these doubles can raise funds to help fund the archies budget and we can help keep archies working in the feild doing the real work they really want to do rather than just sitting in an office because of a cash strapped budget.(the salvors pay the "required" archie on sites salary)

we can help one another and the state too.
or it can be biz as usual and only the looters gain .

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

we can help one another and the state too.

Now we're speaking the same language Ivan. The Fisher Museum is willing to do the conservation and mapping, and they do both as well (if not better on the mapping end) than the state. Obviously they would receive $ or a % of the finds for their services...no problems there. Plenty of folks are willing to do the work like researching and beachcombing and diving for a small percentage too. Then you've got guys like Amelia Research, who have an outstanding boat, are very archaeologically minded, and would LOVE to have a lucrative project to work on.

Our company is not far from being there either, we have a capable team, and a capable vessel with some nice toys. Like the state archaeologists, we need a little help in the budget arena, but it's all coming together. I can think of 5 or 6 other teams that would make excellent "authorized state field crews" or whatever we want to call it. The guys at the state offices are intelligent, so I suspect they will make adhering to the new sanctions within the reach of capable, dedicated teams.

Thanks for the conversation Ivan, I would imagine that at least some of the guys at the state offices are reading it. I wonder if they agree?

Jason

 

[ivan salis]

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

one thing about me -- I never say it once if I can not say it a thosand times -- I speak my mind and try my best to speak the truth as I know it tobe at that time to the best oif my knowledge( which means I can make mistakes but I try not to blantly insult people ) -- that way I don'thave to worry about what I said coming baxk to bite me in the behind --- I do have veiws and for the most part most folks could easily understand them --they tend to be fact based and logical --I do not dislike archies -- what I dislike is not being able to get to historical wrecks -- having to sit by and allow them to be crab picked by looters while honest salvors and researchers sit by with their hands tied -- because of unworkible rules * to get permits.

that I do mind -- the scum get theirs and the straight guys get zippo. now thats just wrong in my book.

I understand their job is to protect, "the resource"(site) in some case the best way to protect it is to salvage it -- otherwize looters will slowly but sure crab pick it to death ---I know that the state guys don't have a big budget --so often they get stuck in the office because of the lack of funds -- thus they don't often get to really do the feild work they love to do. --- well done properly --it could provide funding (thru selling off of excess coins (doubles) that are part of the states cut--could provide unique one of a kind items of great historical value---and could fund archies to go into the feild for real "hands on work / training"

done properly its a win / win for both sides

 

[diverlynn]

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage pro

Most of you remember meeting Scott Jensen at Taffi's sub-contractors meeting. Scott just finished his Masters in Archaeology and has began his doctorate, after assisting amelia for 8 years and now the state does not want to recognize him for it even though they have excepted his work for on the Polly L for years (without any pay) a couple of days ago Scott sent word to the state that if they did not give him their full blessing within 48 hours he would be filing a law suit to reclaim his education cost and his time spent. Maybe the state doesn't think they need another archie? What gives?
He heads out to the Polly L with me tomorrow am, curious to see if he's heard from the state. Will let you all know.


Diverlynn

 

[ivan salis]

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

yes lynn the state has sent me a nice e mail type "letter" too --about how they respect my "fine" work and scholarly research yada yada yada please keep in touch and feed us all the info you find out and so on ---- while I only have a nautical science program cert from charles county community college (3.53 GPA) -- I was a professional merchant seaman for 27 years (chief steward/ baker) with a family history that goes back for hundreds of years at sea -- I know in my life time that my grandfather (dads side --chief engineer)--father ( coast guard / merchant seaman bosun)---uncle (radio officer) --- cuz (AB) --older brother #1 (coast guard - family blacksheep never went merchant marine) older brother #2 (fowt / oiler) were all men of the sea -- and those are just the ones I directly know of (theres even more in the family history --(its was my fathers side way of bussiness --its what we "did" job wise --- my mothers side was coal miners )-- my family has many many years of sea lore and knowledge passed down father to son -- stuff you just don't learn in a classroom type setting.--- but by mixing the "old" practical sea knowledge and "modern" classroom knowledge a lot can be found out / done.

sorry to hear scott jensen is in effect being "black balled" by the state -- since he will be as fully "qualified" as any other archie is once he has a phd (piled high and deep)-- they really have no honest reason to bar him from being accepted as "qualified" --- its like a trucking company refusing to allow you to apply for a job -- even thought you have a state issued ID thats says your "qualified" to be a truck driver -- by them saying we don't "recognaize" your ID ---they do not have any real basis to do so --and its about time that some one called them on it quite frankly . ---- Ivan

 

[ivan salis]

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

once you allow govt folks to "tell you / force you to do things "their" way" or not at all --your at their mercy-- and being on your knees is not a good position to make a deal from.

while I respect their "position" they must remember that they work to serve the will of the people not the other way around -- and that "respect" is based on them being honest and doing what is right -- if they show that they are not doing what is right or honorible then my "respect" dries up and I treat them accordingly.

and this goes for anyone in "power" slots -- not just this one thing.

 

[Salvor6]

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

WOW! Powerful words from Dell and Ivan but they hit the nail on the head! We can't cower to the State Archaeologists demand. On the other hand, they work for US as public servants and if they don't, the Secretary of State needs to replace them with more cooperative archies. After all, where did all the State's treasure collection come from?

 

[FISHEYE]

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage pro

I think the media needs to be invited to this meeting.