The Treasure of El Pensamiento (including Ruminahuis stash)

[Interested Party in UK]

Hello again another factor to take in consideration.

When the "Companies" Jesuits assets was sized by the Crown their total Peru, and upper Peru (Bolivia ) assets in 1767 was valued at 1.6 billion in today's value. Liquid assets was a mere 38 million the rest was in real estate, sugar refines sugar plantations, mission churches schools, colleges and various properties, cattle, wineries.

Back in 1767 it was roughly 96000 pesos ( pillar silver dollars ), Today's value depending on quality and grade taking a rough average would be about 38 million.

I imagine this story has strong similarities with Don Jose research on Tayopa. However each region to a certain degree had various autonomy with Jesuit hierarchy in Europe. Their agendas varied from those of South America to the Mexico. However other through their collages at least was fostering dangerous ideals among an emerging class of people with very little ties to the Spanish throne.

Amy

Hi CI

If the "Company" knew the seizure was coming, and most records indicate they did, would this be the reason that there was such 'little' liquid assets as they may have secreted away a substantial amount? It would have been impossible to do this with land and property but with portable valuables that were only collected a few times a year from the Spanish authorities, were under-declared and a substantive amount of nefarious mining going on as well...?

They were clever chaps the Jesuits, and I cannot believe that they would so readily have given up their spoils so easily. From the centres, cities and palaces of Spain and Europe, in their remote and fairly dangerous dwellings in the Americas, anything would have felt possible and reasonable.

IUP

 

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[Corporate Investigations]

IPUK

Oh and a little more on the fate of president Manuel Mariano Melgarejo Valencia.

In international politics he showed a humiliating subservience to diplomats and foreign powers. It occurred to state that every citizen of the Spanish America it was also of Bolivia, which was named minister of Bolivia in Chile Chilean Aniceto Vergara Albano, the same one that drafted the treaty between Bolivia and Chile for the joint exploitation of a territory included between 23 ° and 25 °, Bolivia treaty meant for the beginning of the loss of access to the Pacific. He also yielded to the claims of Brazil in signing the treaty of March 27, 1867, by which Bolivia yielded to large neighboring country an area over 300,000 square kilometers between the Madeira and Paraguay rivers, which left Bolivia without exit historical she had inherited from the colony and Portugal had always respected.

After numerous attempts frustrated overthrow the January 15, 1871 the city of La Paz rose with the support of Colonel Hilarion Daza , one of the pillars of the regime, and Melgarejo was defeated in a bloody battle in the streets of the capital which resulted in the deaths of more than a thousand citizens. Melgarejo fled on horseback to Peru, where her lover, Juana Sanchez was. There went poor and helpless, trying to regain some of how much he had delivered to the Sanchez family. However despised by his own concubine, he was killed by the brother of Juana, Jose Aurelio Sanchez. History has given its verdict on the government of Melgarejo, calling it a shameful stain on the history of Bolivia.

Even in Progers account of the old Indian that confirmed the deep native hatred for president Manuel Mariano Melgarejo Valencia?

It seems at least if he had looted this alleged Jesuit treasure he did not in haste as he fled on horseback to Peru take it with him?

Amy

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Hello IPUK

If we look deeper into the history of Bolivian president Manuel Mariano Melgarejo Valencia.

(Cochabamba, 1818 - Lima, 1871) Military and political Bolivian president between 1864 and 1871. emblematic leader of the "barbaric caudillo" has been considered by some historians as the most disastrous president in the history of Bolivia.

It probably abandoned by his parents, he entered at an early age in the army, only training institution attended. He fought in the wars of the Confederation and in the battle of Ingavi, and participated in numerous rebellions. Being second sergeant Oruro rebelled against the government of Velasco, a fact that earned him down and banishment to the regions of Huanay. In 1853 she revolted again in Santa Cruz; He was arrested and sentenced to death, and Belzú spared his life at the behest of Cochabamba ladies, but not before warning that someday would repent of it; the warning proved prescient, as the Belzú own die at the hands of Melgarejo.

In 1858 he rebelled against Linares, who, instead of running, confined him to San Matias, on the border with Brazil. During the government of Acha, Melgarejo, with the courage that gave her almost constant state of intoxication, he began the attack against the armies of Gregorio Perez (who wanted to overthrow President Acha), and won a victory that allowed Achá continue in the power.

In return, despite his reprehensible past, Melgarejo was elevated to the rank of general. With the support of the oligarchy Mariano Melgarejo overthrew President Acha and took office on December 28, 1864, when it began an administration of dictatorial regime that was one of the most ominous that has Bolivia in its history . Shortly thereafter, General Melgarejo toured the interior of the country, which was used by Manuel Isidoro Belzú to take the city of La Paz and hold office. Melgarejo returned to the city and, accompanied by a small escort, entered the Government Palace, where Belzú performed a party to celebrate his triumph. Wordlessly, as some witnesses reported, he fired a pistol shot that ended his life.

During his rule the use of the postmark and the metric system was decreed (although this would not apply until fifty years later). He established steam for minting in Potosi and irresponsibly increased circulation feble. During this period simultaneously they increased international prices of guano and saltpeter, which meant a true economic revolution for the country, revolution a system of order and honest could have leverage with magnificent results. But it was as bad management of those interests that concessions were made to foreign companies, with catastrophic consequences for Bolivia.

The government of Melgarejo was devastating for Bolivia. He plundered the public treasury, centralizing public funds in a single box that drove him to his discretion; He suppressed municipalities and decreed forced loans that were made effective with death threats. Soon he realized the country that a drunken whimsical controlled everything "with the constitution in his pocket," as he used to say. Protests erupted everywhere, but they were crushed one to one by the force of an army that all excesses were permitted. The Melgarejo himself executed in the battle of Cantería, the poet Nestor Galindo and other prominent intellectuals. Human life does not deserve any respect for him.

Melgarejo lived and drunk orgy orgy with his closest collaborators and his favorite concubine, Juana Sanchez, whose family took advantage of the funds in the country. He stripped the indigenous communities of their land for their own benefit and their friends by denigrating wiles. On May 20, 1866 issued a decree in which owners of their land declaring the Indians, provided they follow a legal process and pay twenty pesos. Since the Indians were not aware of the decree, and, if you came to learn, could not meet the conditions imposed, their properties were awarded by auction, which could obtain in exchange for paltry sums favorites tyrant. During the robbery, which took effect the national army, true Indian massacres occurred.

There is the possibility the story of murdered peons in the cave was not from the Jesuits but from the atrocities of president Manuel Mariano Melgarejo Valencia in his war to suppress the natives. Thus over time that story became connected with the Jesuits?

Amy

Hence the cave with bodies and the native caretaker telling Prodgers some 40 years later that the president had looked for the treasure, had seized his lands and had tried to force the locals to assist him??

Only a president with the army's backing could kill such a large amount of people. It would seem inconceivable that a few Jesuits could have managed this given the reasons in the so-called legend.

Makes much more sense.

This chap was a rather nasty individual by the looks of things.

Perhaps with all of this going on in such a short period, this where the 'real' story gets interspersed with the 'legend' and facts and fiction amalgamates into one...


IUP

 

[Interested Party in UK]

IPUK

Oh and a little more on the fate of president Manuel Mariano Melgarejo Valencia.

In international politics he showed a humiliating subservience to diplomats and foreign powers. It occurred to state that every citizen of the Spanish America it was also of Bolivia, which was named minister of Bolivia in Chile Chilean Aniceto Vergara Albano, the same one that drafted the treaty between Bolivia and Chile for the joint exploitation of a territory included between 23 ° and 25 °, Bolivia treaty meant for the beginning of the loss of access to the Pacific. He also yielded to the claims of Brazil in signing the treaty of March 27, 1867, by which Bolivia yielded to large neighboring country an area over 300,000 square kilometers between the Madeira and Paraguay rivers, which left Bolivia without exit historical she had inherited from the colony and Portugal had always respected.

After numerous attempts frustrated overthrow the January 15, 1871 the city of La Paz rose with the support of Colonel Hilarion Daza , one of the pillars of the regime, and Melgarejo was defeated in a bloody battle in the streets of the capital which resulted in the deaths of more than a thousand citizens. Melgarejo fled on horseback to Peru, where her lover, Juana Sanchez was. There went poor and helpless, trying to regain some of how much he had delivered to the Sanchez family. However despised by his own concubine, he was killed by the brother of Juana, Jose Aurelio Sanchez. History has given its verdict on the government of Melgarejo, calling it a shameful stain on the history of Bolivia.

Even in Progers account of the old Indian that confirmed the deep native hatred for president Manuel Mariano Melgarejo Valencia?

It seems at least if he had looted this alleged Jesuit treasure he did not in haste as he fled on horseback to Peru take it with him?

Amy

So either he found it and had to leave it and flee for his miserable life, or he had knowledge of its whereabouts but didn't get the opportunity to retrieve it. This chap has a big part in the story then by any account.

I truly believe that you are getting to the 'real' facts CI, as oppose to the superfluous stuff I am getting. This is what defines success to failure and the professional to the amateur!

IUK

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Hi CI

If the "Company" knew the seizure was coming, and most records indicate they did, would this be the reason that there was such 'little' liquid assets as they may have secreted away a substantial amount? It would have been impossible to do this with land and property but with portable valuables that were only collected a few times a year from the Spanish authorities, were under-declared and a substantive amount of nefarious mining going on as well...?

They were clever chaps the Jesuits, and I cannot believe that they would so readily have given up their spoils so easily. From the centres, cities and palaces of Spain and Europe, in their remote and fairly dangerous dwellings in the Americas, anything would have felt possible and reasonable.

IUP

IPUK

It appears we are faced with the chicken and the egg problem with much of the story?

The Jesuits operated fairly autonomously in their own regions. As we can see in Paraguay. One of the skills they taught to the natives was silver smithing. to do that they, it would be logical to thing sourcing the silver from somewhere? While they technically had no permission from the Spanish Crown to own and mine directly. There was nothing to stop the Jesuits from secondary indirect services. Such as organizing and providing labor that would in some respect generate a lot of wealth and jealously from Spanish miners as the Jesuits control the labor force.

With quite a large operation cost of reductions indeed much wealth was most likely funnel through various enterprises they had across Peru. However if they was earning a percentage of production from 22 mines along Sacambaya area. Its not inconceivable that before they could funnel that wealth through various enterprises. hid treasure on their properties at Sacambaya?

Amy

 

[Corporate Investigations]

IPUK

There is so much we do not know. As the trio once told me the truth may be very different from the legend we know.

But the great Irony to taunt us is there may truth behind the half truths and assumptions that has crept into the legend as we know it?

Amy

 

[Interested Party in UK]

By the way, I read Morrison's and Howells' book last night. There wasn't that much on Sacambaya to be honest, but I managed to glean a few details from it.

They mentioned that the route to it showed plenty of slopes on the hills and mountains where there had been obvious sign of old, and new, small mining operations. It was surmised after surveying the site, that unless you knew the very precise location, or at least the general area, it would be highly unlikely that the treasure would be obtainable. The terrain was too complex, the conditions difficult and the area huge.

A native guide said that an American had stayed two years at the site, in about 1963-1965, and had left empty-handed and broken-hearted. The same guide alleged that the story of the "crazy guy holding two golden goblets" actually happened in the 1960s as well and that he had seen the chap when the finder and his two friends returned to Inquisivi after their visit to Sacambaya. Morrison and Howells also saw the spot - near a wall from one of the buildings - where the "madman" had allegedly dup-up the golden goblets.

They only give one reference in their book about their source for the story (Treasure Trek, James Stead, 1936) and most of their information comes from locals and legend. It was not heartening to see that they got the years of expeditions; Prodgers' and Sanders' wrong by many years, and that all their details were not very in-depth in any way. It was also claimed that whilst Sanders was there, his group had been involved in a serious firefight with a group of Bolivian treasure-hunters. But I am wary of such claims. They too claimed that many smaller discoveries of treasure had been made over the years at the site, mostly by accident due to landslides and heavy rains.

Whilst in Inquisivi planning their trip to Sacambaya, they met a lady who showed them ancient pottery with Inca and Pre-Inca designs that she claimed had been uncovered in and around Sacambaya. An indicator to the sites age and relevance?

Apparently the site was still used by natives as a shrine and had fresh offerings doted around the place and was revered in some ways. Would natives in that case really readily give honest information to outsiders and help in the recovery of treasure?

When they returned to Inquisivi after their brief trip, they discussed the treasure with a local chap who discovered that they had a metal-detector and he also showed them an old document which detailed various caches that had been made securely at Sacambaya in anticipation of a return of the good fathers to recover the treasure.

I would also guess that the Jesuits would have buried any treasure in clever but accessible spots that would not have been in delicate areas prone to being subject to landslides or other natural occurences. They would have been very careful to ensure that what they put away could be retrieved safely as well.

IUP

 

[Interested Party in UK]

You are right CI, we could end-up going round in circles with this one, and due to its location, without solid evidence, it could be a frustrating one.

It is not beyond the realms of reason to think that the Jesuits 'stored' treasure until such time they wished to dispose of it, it would have been the reasonable and practical solution. Small amounts have been found allegedly so this may act as an indicator that individuals felt concerned enough to do this.


IUP

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Hello IPUK

Going back to your detailed posts, number 112, details Corina San Roman with the added name of "Caballo". Is this how the supposed hill with the egg-shaped stone was called the "Caballo Cunco"?

Interesting you should mention this "Strange Name"

In Spanish Caballo means Horse. Cunco means in some parts of South America local terms Bowl. So the hill in effect in English is horse Bowl?

Or perhaps we need to look a little further? Cunco some times spelled as Cuño is a common Spanish idiomatic expression . Its actual meaning differs according to region or country, but in Spain and several Latin American countries it is understood as slang for the female genitalia, the vulva. Is that a suggestion of a cave on the hill or the egg shaped stone?

Amy

 

[Corporate Investigations]

You are right CI, we could end-up going round in circles with this one, and due to its location, without solid evidence, it could be a frustrating one.

It is not beyond the realms of reason to think that the Jesuits 'stored' treasure until such time they wished to dispose of it, it would have been the reasonable and practical solution. Small amounts have been found allegedly so this may act as an indicator that individuals felt concerned enough to do this.


IUP

Hello IPUK

You begin to see why the trio debated furiously about the story but claim to conclusion it did not meet all the criteria to continue to much time and resources to. While interesting there is just not enough to get it over the line.

However still would be interest to hear what the descendants of Corina San Roman would say?

Amy

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Hi CI

The naming of the hill is another pointer, but probably not enough in and of itself to indicate much else.

I now know why the Trio were so hard-headed about this one. If I may, what would have been the "clincher" for them to commit to Sacambaya/Plazuela?
Hard Luck and Kanacki went and viewed the place, as would have EL Crow if he was well enough at the time, so it did pique their curiosity enough. What if there was data available that suggested 'something' was buried there?

It would be a big piece of the jigsaw if the descendants of Corina had their views aired as well. She was the lady who ostensibly was given as the original purveyor of the story by Prodgers. As you suggest, such a big thing would be passed down from generation to generation and conceivably there could be someone alive who heard it straight from Corina herself.

IUK

 

[Corporate Investigations]

By the way, I read Morrison's and Howells' book last night. There wasn't that much on Sacambaya to be honest, but I managed to glean a few details from it.

They mentioned that the route to it showed plenty of slopes on the hills and mountains where there had been obvious sign of old, and new, small mining operations. It was surmised after surveying the site, that unless you knew the very precise location, or at least the general area, it would be highly unlikely that the treasure would be obtainable. The terrain was too complex, the conditions difficult and the area huge.

A native guide said that an American had stayed two years at the site, in about 1963-1965, and had left empty-handed and broken-hearted. The same guide alleged that the story of the "crazy guy holding two golden goblets" actually happened in the 1960s as well and that he had seen the chap when the finder and his two friends returned to Inquisivi after their visit to Sacambaya. Morrison and Howells also saw the spot - near a wall from one of the buildings - where the "madman" had allegedly dup-up the golden goblets.

They only give one reference in their book about their source for the story (Treasure Trek, James Stead, 1936) and most of their information comes from locals and legend. It was not heartening to see that they got the years of expeditions; Prodgers' and Sanders' wrong by many years, and that all their details were not very in-depth in any way. It was also claimed that whilst Sanders was there, his group had been involved in a serious firefight with a group of Bolivian treasure-hunters. But I am wary of such claims. They too claimed that many smaller discoveries of treasure had been made over the years at the site, mostly by accident due to landslides and heavy rains.

Whilst in Inquisivi planning their trip to Sacambaya, they met a lady who showed them ancient pottery with Inca and Pre-Inca designs that she claimed had been uncovered in and around Sacambaya. An indicator to the sites age and relevance?

Apparently the site was still used by natives as a shrine and had fresh offerings doted around the place and was revered in some ways. Would natives in that case really readily give honest information to outsiders and help in the recovery of treasure?

When they returned to Inquisivi after their brief trip, they discussed the treasure with a local chap who discovered that they had a metal-detector and he also showed them an old document which detailed various caches that had been made securely at Sacambaya in anticipation of a return of the good fathers to recover the treasure.

I would also guess that the Jesuits would have buried any treasure in clever but accessible spots that would not have been in delicate areas prone to being subject to landslides or other natural occurences. They would have been very careful to ensure that what they put away could be retrieved safely as well.

IUP

Sadly most of the books written on the subject are lacking in verifiable information. They either unintentional or intentionally added to the legend.

My opinions are mixed with this story just as it was with the trios.

Ideally the answer lies if one could obtain the original documents....It would go a long way in verifying the truth of this treasure legend.

Perhaps in a small chance one of the Descendants still have a verifiable copy of what was on the original document...I think that might of been Crows inference to?

Amy

 

[Interested Party in UK]

What if I tracked down Howell or Morrison and got the details of the chap (Vargas) in Inquisivi who had an "original old document" that they stated in the book, and considering its only been 49 years, this gent might still be around or his descendants at least?

IUP

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Hi CI

The naming of the hill is another pointer, but probably not enough in and of itself to indicate much else.

I now know why the Trio were so hard-headed about this one. If I may, what would have been the "clincher" for them to commit to Sacambaya/Plazuela?
Hard Luck and Kanacki went and viewed the place, as would have EL Crow if he was well enough at the time, so it did pique their curiosity enough. What if there was data available that suggested 'something' was buried there?

It would be a big piece of the jigsaw if the descendants of Corina had their views aired as well. She was the lady who ostensibly was given as the original purveyor of the story by Prodgers. As you suggest, such a big thing would be passed down from generation to generation and conceivably there could be someone alive who heard it straight from Corina herself.

IUK

Hello IPUK

Good question. When I first asked them this about all treasure legends. Hardluck told me a story when they was young and adventurous, for them it was all just an adventure adventure and for most part just another misadventure. Just as they to believed too blindly what was published in treasure hunting books but soon realized. While it was fun visiting these sites many due to various reason would ultimately turn out to be a failure one way or another. The realization came why many treasure hunters failed in the past that they was not clinical enough. As so began their strict criteria when they evaluate a story. I will not go into details here. But I will tell one thing for certain these days for them to commit time and effort they ply their passion like a business and number one rule is confirm by independent sources that the treasure really exists.

If they cannot confirm with absolute certainty they move on.

They will pick apart treasure legend right down to the bare bones of story. Establish verified facts and see where it takes them.

Amy

 

[Corporate Investigations]

What if I tracked down Howell or Morrison and got the details of the chap (Vargas) in Inquisivi who had an "original old document" that they stated in the book, and considering its only been 49 years, this gent might still be around or his descendants at least?

IUP

Hello IPUK

Perhaps how about PM me and I give you the contact details of two of the descendants of Corina San Roman Caballo?

Amy

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Hi CI

That is why the Trio are what they are and achieve success, and the many will simply feel the frustration.

IUK

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Hello IPUK

Perhaps how about PM me and I give you the contact details of two of the descendants of Corina San Roman Caballo?

Amy

That I will.

Thank you.

IUK

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Hi CI

That is why the Trio are what they are and achieve success, and the many will simply feel the frustration.

IUK

Hello IPUK do not be fooled they have had their fair share of frustration too. Crow in drunken stupor once told me treasure hunting is a numbers game you may get kicked in the head 99 times out of hundred. but there that one that just might make all the pain worthwhile.

Its late...

Amy

 

[Interested Party in UK]

I understand Crow's viewpoint.

Please do not worry - when you've got time, we shall resume!

Enjoy your evening/night....

Thank you

IUK

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

True AMY, so true.My respect for el Cuervo increases all of the time, as well as the rest of the cuartet.