Things weve learned from Legends of the Supes - and questions for the team

[vor]

How do we know that they were "Peralta family"
I doubt if they were IDed with everybody drooling over them.

 

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[chlsbrns]

How do we know that they were "Peralta family"
I doubt if they were IDed with everybody drooling over them.

Searching history books for massacre has zero results for peralta and a slew of results for peralto.

There are so many hits for massacre that the so called peralta massacre must be the only one that was never reported. If it was reported it would surely be in the news. If it was never reported how would the peralta family know anything?

It was something like 50 people massacred and no news? A rich mine with no record of the mine?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Happens, try Tayopa for example.

 

[vor]

There are many after the fact references but none contemporary that I have seen.
Does this mean that the myth is busted?
Then the maps are just comical dribbling as they appear?
Say it aint so...

 

[chlsbrns]

There are many after the fact references but none contemporary that I have seen.
Does this mean that the myth is busted?
Then the maps are just comical dribbling as they appear?
Say it aint so...

I must not be getting it?

A lost mine with a multitude of maps leading to it? Stone maps, julia maps, peralta maps, other maps with different versions to a lost mine? Unreported massacres that everyone knows about?

So many book writers know about these things? Where did they get their info?

Im not getting it?

 

[pkdmslf]

Searching history books for massacre has zero results for peralta and a slew of results for peralto.

There are so many hits for massacre that the so called peralta massacre must be the only one that was never reported. If it was reported it would surely be in the news. If it was never reported how would the peralta family know anything?

It was something like 50 people massacred and no news? A rich mine with no record of the mine?

Not all of history was "officially" documented.

Off topic: My mother's side of the family has Choctaw and Cherokee blood. After searching all of the "documented" rolls, I could not find a verifiable Indian relative in the "documents". I asked my grandfather why none of the names showed up on the Indian rolls and he said that during the the Trail Of Tears, not all of the Indians left. Some stayed in the mountains, hidden, and as time passed they married into other families. No official records exist of "their" Indian heritage. Just oral family histories.

Just because you can't find an official document doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

[Azquester]

There are many after the fact references but none contemporary that I have seen.
Does this mean that the myth is busted?
Then the maps are just comical dribbling as they appear?
Say it aint so...

Like all stories told about lost gold everyone died in the massacre but who's alive to tell the story? I guess they found skulls, sandal's what have you and the party never returned to mexico they just assumed. Only massacre any where near is the Sierra Estrella range at Montezuma's Head Indian National Monument an grave side convenience store.

Only one mans word were all sucking in is old Jacob's drunken lies. It's well known the gave anyone with pneumonia whiskey that's all they had.

It's a story told by a dying old drunk Dutchman.

Bar room bragging rights going boots first out the saloon door!

Party on Dude!!

 

[chlsbrns]

Not all of history was "officially" documented.

Off topic: My mother's side of the family has Choctaw and Cherokee blood. After searching all of the "documented" rolls, I could not find a verifiable Indian relative in the "documents". I asked my grandfather why none of the names showed up on the Indian rolls and he said that during the the Trail Of Tears, not all of the Indians left. Some stayed in the mountains, hidden, and as time passed they married into other families. No official records exist of "their" Indian heritage. Just oral family histories.

Just because you can't find an official document doesn't mean it didn't happen.

You are correct not all history is recorded. The ldm and everything associated with the ldm is a perfect example.

 

[vor]

You are correct not all history is recorded. The ldm and everything associated with the ldm is a perfect example.

If a large party of Mexicans vanished, there would be many documents in Sonora of MC reporting so.
V

 

[djui5]

What do you think about the 1898 article by the Archeological Institute of America about a lost mine near a dump and a dam? Seven years after waltz's death.

Youre not familiar with the mines worked on the Salt near Horse Mesa? They would damm the river to use the water for ore processing. Documented fact.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi Bill, the winners of course. Coffee ?

 

[somehiker]

If a large party of Mexicans vanished, there would be many documents in Sonora of MC reporting so.
V

Might not have been documented or even reported to the Mex. Gov't.
In 1848 the Sups were US territory, the Peralta's were Mexican citizens who were mining without the consent of the US Gov't , and massacres were not uncommon in that time frame. Questions would have been asked as to the reasons for and location of the massacre, had it been reported or documented. Would the Peralta family have wanted the location of their mines to become known ? I don't think so.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Youre not familiar with the mines worked on the Salt near Horse Mesa? They would damm the river to use the water for ore processing. Documented fact.

Well then, do so - document away. Or keep wasting electrons.

 

[KXMember]

If your not aware of the Gonzales map your not doing your homework. It's been out there for years

Gonzales/Peralta/Montezuma/Dutchman All the same mine.

 

[Oroblanco]

Might not have been documented or even reported to the Mex. Gov't.
In 1848 the Sups were US territory, the Peralta's were Mexican citizens who were mining without the consent of the US Gov't , and massacres were not uncommon in that time frame. Questions would have been asked as to the reasons for and location of the massacre, had it been reported or documented. Would the Peralta family have wanted the location of their mines to become known ? I don't think so.

The Mexicans mining in Arizona rather illegally was an issue that even made it into the reports of the Indian bureau:

I beg authority to make this reservation at an early day and an allowance of means to pay the expense of a survey and permanent landmarks to be erected at the four corners of the boundary The Papagos within our jurisdiction live in eighteen different villages and are estimated as follows
Souls
San Xavier del Bac 500
Santa Rosa TM Cahuabia 350
Fresnal 250
Cojota 500
Tecolota 500
Cumero Poso Verde 350
Sou Saida 250
Sonoita 500
Mesquit 500
Periqua Chuoa 250
Poso Blanca 300
Quejotoa 500
Nariz 250
Alcalde 250
Quotovaquita 250
Total 6,800

The most of these villages are watering places around which these simple minded people gather for the scanty sustenance accorded them by nature. Water water water is the great desideratum.

The requirements of these Indians would be first the implements necessary to increase their supply of water and prepare irrigating ditches then agricultural and mining implements. They wash considerable gold in the rainy season which commences in June and lasts two or three months with occasional showers in the winter. A number of very rich silver mines have recently been opened in their Territory and questions are already arising as to the rights of Americans, Mexicans, and Indians to the mines wood water and grass in the vicinity. In former times rich gold placers have been worked here and as the drifted gold must have had some origin it is probable that gold mines will be discovered in the vicinity. The region abounds in copper ore of great richness which from its proximity to the Gulf of California will soon be mined for transportation. The Indians can be made useful to the Americans and derive benefit from their enterprise if their interests can be harmonized and protected. The Mexicans of Sonora to the number of several thousand of the worst class are mining and carrying off the ores and precious metals from this region without paying any tribute to commerce or government. It scarcely seems proper to pay ten millions of dollars for a territory and then allow the natural enemies of our race and nation to carry away the most valuable property upon it without let or hindrance.

Annual report of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to the Secretary of the ... By United States. Office of Indian Affairs, United States. Dept. of the Interior, 1864, pp 385

 

[somehiker]

And with scores of "undocumented" bodies being found all along the US side of the border even today, not much has changed.
Usually no names or circumstances are able to be reported. Only the body count of those who are found.

 

[KXMember]

Our Archeologist is working in Southern NM now and was telling me they are finding way more than they ever expected...extremely populated in the past.