tickets and fines for detecting

Tom_in_CA · Mar 19, 2015

reply

huntergt said:
.... I would not be asking an archie. I could care less what he thinks about his birds and crabs as he does not enforce the law. I would be calling the local police/sheriff/ranger to ask...

That's a fair answer. But ..... don't you realize that when you ask a ranger (for instance), that your question can be "passed up the chain". In other words, it's not uncommon for them to perhaps not know the answer themselves, so they get on the phone, and call their superior, or their contacts at the head-offices, etc.... And.... guess who's desk this "pressing question" can land on ? Yup, the very person you're acknowledging would be the LAST one you would ask .

huntergt said:
....I will also assume if they told me no....that they would tell the next guy no and any other md'er who calls. So yes...that would apply to all.
....

Oh but don't we all wish it was that simple. You can go in the exact same city or county or state office, on 4 different days, asking 4 different persons, and get 4 different answers. And in the example I gave you of "everyone in the state has detected such & such type beaches", can't you see that it's probably wise to leave good enough alone ?

TheHunterGT · Mar 19, 2015

Tom_in_CA said:
That's a fair answer. But ..... don't you realize that when you ask a ranger (for instance), that your question can be "passed up the chain". In other words, it's not uncommon for them to perhaps not know the answer themselves, so they get on the phone, and call their superior, or their contacts at the head-offices, etc.... And.... guess who's desk this "pressing question" can land on ? Yup, the very person you're acknowledging would be the LAST one you would ask .

You are using scenarios that may or may not happen. My personal experience has been that my local offices have been more than willing to help me. If they do not know the answer...they usually tell me to go ahead and do it. I take a name and number to cover my end and even flag down a field officer/ranger if I see one to be double sure. I say "so and so" from the office said it was ok to be here....do you agree? Yup..no problem...carry on. That has been how it works for me. Lived in Fresno, CA for 24 years and now Colorado for 15. Worked the same in both places my whole life for firearms. Guessing detecting is even more relaxed.

Tom_in_CA said:
Oh but don't we all wish it was that simple. You can go in the exact same city or county or state office, on 4 different days, asking 4 different persons, and get 4 different answers. And in the example I gave you of "everyone in the state has detected such & such type beaches", can't you see that it's probably wise to leave good enough alone ?

Valid point. Often times you will get different answers. But im my experience they fall along the lines of uncertainty usually.....not a flat out no here and a yes there. It usually 3 have no idea and one guy can show me the law if asked for a print.

To each their own Tom. My experiences are truly different than most here it would seem. I will continue to ask...while others won't The world will still turn all the same. :occasion14:

Nugs Bunny · Mar 20, 2015

I look up the regulations myself, if I can't find them and end up asking public officials, then I ask for the regulations... not for permission.

Tom_in_CA · Mar 20, 2015

Nugs Bunny said:
I look up the regulations myself, if I can't find them and end up asking public officials, then I ask for the regulations... not for permission.

Bunny Nugs, I have heard this angle before. It sounds logical, and it goes something like this: Instead of asking some city person for "permission", ...... instead, the md'r asks in the following format: "Is there anything in muni codes or laws that prohibits metal detectors in the park ?". Because in THAT way of phrasing it, you're putting the burden-of-proof on them, to CITE such a law, if one existed. Rather than their personal whim or "feelings", etc..

Am I right in my surmising of your post ?

If so, I have a word of caution for that: While it's an improvement, I have heard of the following odd results of this:

a) "No you can't". To which the md'r correctly replies: "But where is that written?". To which the city person cites something about harming earthworms, or lost & found laws, or IRS tax laws, alteration/damage, taking/removing, or ...... other such nonsense.

b) "We would prefer you didn't" (as if you had just asked their permission). To which the resulting odd discussion of (a) above occurs.

c) Yes but you can't dig. (even though the md'r NEVER mentioned the word dig)

d) Yes but you must turn everything in to the city coffers.

Tom_in_CA · Mar 20, 2015

There was even a true case, where a certain city council meeting had, on their agenda, a proposed rule to forbid md'ing in all the city parks. A careful sleuthing of what led up to it, was very interesting: This city had one park, that had a historic fort tourist thing. One day, a man called or showed up at a city secretary's desk, to ask what the rules/laws were concerning md'ing in this town's parks. And the ... uh ... "tone" of the call was as-if-to-imply:

"... and if you're going to say no, be prepared to show chapter and verse....".

The city worker answering the call, on the one hand, could find nothing saying "no detecting". But on the other hand, was aware of the ... uh .... implications (because the town had some sort of historic theme in one of its parks). So they had to tell the inquirer that there was no laws they could think of addressing this subject. Therefore .......... guess what appears on the council's agenda at a meeting soon after that? A proposal to enact a rule about this.

TheHunterGT · Mar 20, 2015

I can def see that happening Tom. One should probably steer clear of desk clerks and council members etc. They rarely have the answers (or reasoning) for the very laws they place into city code which is a shame.

Agreed that "permission" should not be the word. I'm guilty of using it in the last few posts. Checking on "regulations" does sound a bit better. :occasion14:

As of this morning about 10am I called my local police dept and local sheriff. Police dispatcher told me immediately there are no regulations in place...just ask the owner if on private property. Asked about the city park and he said to dig away. So all good there inside city limits.

I next called the county sheriff. The clerk lady WAS a bit rude and sounded like I was wasting her time. She had no idea of any law in place and admitted as much before she placed me on hold and a deputy came on a few minutes later. He was very polite and told me the same thing. No rules out here...just stay off private land or ask the owner. Asked about the schools as well and both police and county sheriff said to just call them and ask.

Here is the kicker. The sheriff deputy told me of a couple old homestead from the late 1800's that are on public non-fenced land. Gave me 2 locations to check out.....told he has not seen anybody on either property as long as he lived. Guessing he is 50ish of age.

So for my area...no problem. The people in the know were polite and told me to have fun and dig away. I figure they enforce the laws...they know a HELL of alot more about it then the people who write them with a quick signature. Steer clear of desk clerks and city council types.

Growing up 24 years in California Tom...I can say eastern Colorado is a 180 degree difference as far as lifestyle pace. So it very well may be where we are and who we ask. If that makes any sense...

Nugs Bunny · Mar 20, 2015

Tom I don't ask if there are any restrictions, I simply ask for the regulations. It's nobody's business why, for all they know I could be looking them up to get detectorists booted from a park.

Never offer more information than is needed and never rely on unverified statements. There is a reason we have the Fifth Amendment and why we write laws down. :thumbsup:

They can make up whatever reason they want at City Hall to deny an individual, but if it's not written law there isn't much they can do. It happens everyday, and there have been countless court battles.

Nugs Bunny · Mar 20, 2015

Tom_in_CA said:
There was even a true case, where a certain city council meeting had, on their agenda, a proposed rule to forbid md'ing in all the city parks. A careful sleuthing of what led up to it, was very interesting: This city had one park, that had a historic fort tourist thing. One day, a man called or showed up at a city secretary's desk, to ask what the rules/laws were concerning md'ing in this town's parks. And the ... uh ... "tone" of the call was as-if-to-imply:

"... and if you're going to say no, be prepared to show chapter and verse....".

The city worker answering the call, on the one hand, could find nothing saying "no detecting". But on the other hand, was aware of the ... uh .... implications (because the town had some sort of historic theme in one of its parks). So they had to tell the inquirer that there was no laws they could think of addressing this subject. Therefore .......... guess what appears on the council's agenda at a meeting soon after that? A proposal to enact a rule about this.

Sure in California! :laughing7:

What isn't illegal or off limits there?

I'm surprised there isn't a Statewide ban on metal detecting all together there, just look at the moratorium on dredging and the regulations on high banking...

It's a shame because Cali is such an awesome place, too bad it's run by a bunch of goofy left leaners!

I have told you before if I lived in CA I would be prospecting for nuggets. Sure I would find coins and jewelry along the way, but there are laws that protect my right to prospect for gold with my metal detector.

Where I live nobody cares about metal detecting, so a phone call to City Hall isn't going to bring a snowball effect of regulations. In California all it takes is inciting environmental hysteria and it's banned!

Tom_in_CA · Mar 20, 2015

Nugs Bunny said:
Tom I don't ask if there are any restrictions, I simply ask for the regulations. ....

ah, then I misunderstood your post. When said "ask them for regulations", I thought you meant asking if there is regulations for md'ing the park(s). But you meant to ask them where the public can access the written rules & regulations. I see what you mean now.

Yes: This is good for occasions when you can't find where the muni-codes are. Like if the city website is cryptic and doesn't contain that. You can ask at city hall or the police station: "where can a person find/see the city's municipal codes, charter, laws, etc...". And then yes: You'll be directed to wherever it exists in binder form somewhere.

Nugs Bunny · Mar 21, 2015

Tom_in_CA said:
ah, then I misunderstood your post. When said "ask them for regulations", I thought you meant asking if there is regulations for md'ing the park(s). But you meant to ask them where the public can access the written rules & regulations. I see what you mean now.

Yes: This is good for occasions when you can't find where the muni-codes are. Like if the city website is cryptic and doesn't contain that. You can ask at city hall or the police station: "where can a person find/see the city's municipal codes, charter, laws, etc...". And then yes: You'll be directed to wherever it exists in binder form somewhere.

When it comes to dealing with people behind desks, I have the worst luck imaginable. I always end up with the biggest dummy there that is clueless, from the customer service desk at the local grocery store to the professional pen pushers at the State Capitol.

I can't even trust them to do their own job effectively let alone research laws too. I feel much better if I read the regulations for myself and determine the legality of my actions based upon my own personal judgment.

If no regulations can be found and I still am unsure of the legality of detecting an area, then I would contact the authorities for that County and ask if any regulations exist.

I wouldn't ask them if I'm allowed, I wouldn't advise them I plan to detect, that's not their call to make and none of their business.

I agree asking the wrong people in CA can open a can of worms, but that is the exception to the rule... not the other way around.

aamkajutsu · Apr 7, 2015

I'm new to MDing. I bought a metal detector and it should arrive tomorrow. That being said, I have to admit that after reading this thread and the horror stories, that I'm having 2nd thoughts. I'm thinking that it just isn't worth the hassle so maybe the smart thing to do is to just return it unopened and find a different hobby.

Phil

cudamark · Apr 7, 2015

If you're trying to avoid all confrontations, you're probably right, find another hobby.

Tom_in_CA · Apr 7, 2015

aamkajutsu said:
I'm new to MDing. I bought a metal detector and it should arrive tomorrow. That being said, I have to admit that after reading this thread and the horror stories, that I'm having 2nd thoughts. I'm thinking that it just isn't worth the hassle so maybe the smart thing to do is to just return it unopened and find a different hobby.

Phil

Aamkajutsu: It must just be human nature to "magnify". Same as shark attacks: Even though only a couple of people per year ever die in shark attacks nationwide, yet ..... guess what everyone's fear is when thinking about swimming at the beach ? SHARK ATTACKS! Why? Because it's awefully hard to argue with bloody gory photographs of shark attack victims. And think "oh no, this is the risk for me if I swim!" When truth be told, it's very rare. Same for md'ing.

Your post is proof of something I've been saying for ages here: That the MERE FACT of "scary stories" being posted (no matter how remote, etc...) merely perpetuates the very thing it was meant to warn about. Ie.: it just becomes "self-fulfilling". Like a vicious loop.

But you're right: If you have a thin skin, and prefer to have red-carpets rolled out for you, then yes: this hobby might not be for you.

Treasure_Hunter · Apr 7, 2015

aamkajutsu said:
I'm new to MDing. I bought a metal detector and it should arrive tomorrow. That being said, I have to admit that after reading this thread and the horror stories, that I'm having 2nd thoughts. I'm thinking that it just isn't worth the hassle so maybe the smart thing to do is to just return it unopened and find a different hobby.

Phil

Get permission for private property, check your local laws using computer and google, if it doesn't say no metal detecting then detect it. Stay out of national parks and national seashores...

You live in a good location for detecting...Go detecting..

aamkajutsu · Apr 7, 2015

I'm not sure that it's an issue of thin skin so much as I just don't have the fight in me anymore that I did when I was younger. I was hoping that in my retirement years I could just chill and enjoy the time I have left doing the things I want to do without being hassled or having to look over my shoulder.

Phil

SeabeeRon · Apr 7, 2015

aamkajutsu said:
I'm not sure that it's an issue of thin skin so much as I just don't have the fight in me anymore that I did when I was younger. I was hoping that in my retirement years I could just chill and enjoy the time I have left doing the things I want to do without being hassled or having to look over my shoulder.

Phil

You should just "chill and enjoy" as you said! If you clean up after yourself in public parks and just use common sense, this can be the best retirement hobby ever!! 8-)

It's what I did!

Tom_in_CA · Apr 7, 2015

aamkajutsu said:
... without being hassled or having to look over my shoulder ....

Well, when you think of it, a man with a metal detector does draw stares from curious on-lookers. It does sort of "stick out". People will wonder "gee what's that man with the geiger-counter thingy doing?" And "gee, I wonder if he's finding anything good?", Or "gee, I wonder if he'll leave holes".

It's admittedly inescapable. In fact, sort of annoying. I get so tired of people on the beach stopping to ask "what's the best thing you've ever found" or "how deep does it go", etc... Now for the beach or sandboxes, perhaps the ... uh .... "connotations" aren't an issue. But for turfed parks, sure, it can start to raise connotations.

But heck, even for the beach, persons could gripe. I heard of at least 2 stories of persons on beaches (where it wasn't necessarily forbidden) who "got read the riot act" for detecting! Now granted, these were RARE exceptions. And one time I had a lady tell me my detector was bothering her dog. I think she thought it emitted some sound or frequency that only dogs could hear ? :icon_scratch:

Any case: yes: you do have to prepare for being an "odd-man-out".

If beaches and sandboxes aren't your bag, then your next option is private property. Ie.: friends and neighbors with older yards, etc.. Or find out where old stage stops were on private property in your area, and get permission. But if "skittish" and "odd-feelings" are what you don't like, then asking permission from total strangers is also not the funnest thing on the planet either .

aamkajutsu · Apr 7, 2015

I think y'all have done a good job of convincing me that I am over-analyzing this. Bad habit of engineers...

I think I'll be okay and I'm glad that I spent some time researching some of the laws and asking y'all some questions. You've probably kept me out of some trouble. I am disappointed that the areas that were on my radar will be off limits but I plan to do some traveling before long so I'm sure I'll find some opportunities.

My first search tomorrow will be in the yard of my 110 year old house.

Thanks to all of you for your help!

Phil

SeabeeRon · Apr 7, 2015

Your own yard is always a good place to start!! 110 years!! Be sure to let us know what you find!

aamkajutsu · Apr 7, 2015

Will do. I can tell you one thing, there is a lot of trash... my old Bounty Hunter III can tell you that. :laughing7:

tickets and fines for detecting

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So really what would you all do??????

METAL DETECTING ON THE NATIONAL FORESTS

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