Treasure Mountain, CO - Lost Frenchmens Gold

[sdcfia]

Hi Amy,

I don't know about the others but I'm finding out that there is only so much you can do over the internet. The librarians that I've been in touch with have been great about giving me information and advice but there is only so much that they can or will do. I'm learning how to find people who will do the research for me but then I'm at the mercy of their schedule. I took a couple years of French in high school and I've even been thinking about taking some courses so I can read some of the French documents myself. It's been great. If you have a love for history, there's never a dull moment.

This legend appears to hinge on the report that allegedly made its way back to New Orleans or France via the sole survivor. The fact that the earliest published accounts (supplied by you here and by Adams' books) exist at all in fair but conflicting detail seems to indicate that if such an original report exists, somebody may have used it at some point in the 1800s. If so, the cache may have been recovered long ago, but if so, it seems that we would know the whereabouts of the now-empty shaft/tunnel/well.

Also, with the great number of trappers (many French) active in the cache area ca 1820-1850 and wintering in Taos, it seems some skuttlebut should have been mentioned in the many Spanish reports, trappers's memoirs and early Santa Fe Trail info from the period. I've read a lot of the trappers and SFT stuff, but not the Spanish documents or the French - if they exist. mdog, you might have to travel to Chihuahua, New Orleans and somewhere in France to track down these possible whispers. I'd start in France.

Of course, the possibility remains that the legend was invented as a cover story loosely based on cloudy historical events in order to obscure and divert attention away from other more recent activities in the same vicinity. Wouldn't be the first time.

 

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[UncleMatt]

There is a father/daughter team looking for this treasure, and supposedly even got some kind of a permit from the Forest Service. The problem is they have melded together two different stories about two different treasures and gotten them confused. They used to have a website and youtube videos posted. I will have to look and see if I can find them.

I personally think this story is just a yarn to sell newspapers. As well, that area was not frequented by Apaches as far as I know, but by the Utes.

 

[UncleMatt]

Here is an article about the father and daughter team. It shows how they have the story of Treasure Mountain confused with the legend of the Lost Mine of the Window.

Looking For A Lost Treasure - Story | The High Plains

Here is their website: Our Story? | American Treasure Finders

I personally don't think they have found anything, and I doubt they ever will.

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Hello All its easy to see over time human nature tends to add and forget things from the original tale.

Amy

 

[UncleMatt]

I agree Amy! And Instant Wealth Syndrome often causes people to be willing to believe in things they might otherwise just ignore.

 

[Randy Bradford]

Here is an article about the father and daughter team. It shows how they have the story of Treasure Mountain confused with the legend of the Lost Mine of the Window.

I personally don't think they have found anything, and I doubt they ever will.

UncleMatt, I think you bring up a couple of points that folks recognize but seem reluctant to talk about. Anyone that's done research, particularly on legendary treasures, recognizes a few things real fast. Namely that give time, treasure stories do two things...they migrate and they cross-pollinate.

I got started researching with a book many of you are familiar with, Buried treasures in the USA by Robert Marx. Back of that book had a state by state guide with two or three sentence stories, hundreds of them, for each state. Over the years, anyone that's familiar with the Penfield/Carson/Henson state guides, or the Thomas P. Terry treasure atlases are familiar with the format. Point is, all that information and if you read it and have a semi-decent memory, things start to jump out.

I first got into the Montezuma treasure story because I noticed it cropped up a lot. Over the years, I collected 50 or so versions of the story from every SW state, Mexico, Central American, even as far east as Illinois. Point is, I became fascinated with the stories, not as legitimate sources of information (for the most part) but as a historical and cultural phenomenon. I had to ask myself, why do so many places have the same story, what is it about their locale that supports it, and how have these stories impacted local communities and people. It's not hard to imagine, when you plot the points of many of these stories, how a story can often "travel" when not anchored by a specific locale (say, the Lost Dutchman or Victorio Peak). Person A hears a story in Town A...as a traveler, either running cattle, hopping a train, or simply going out to see ole Aunt Myrtle, he finds himself telling that story. Person B at Location B hears the story, and in subsequent retellings, some information is changed, added or lost and quickly the new story becomes part of the local folklore, takes root, and begins to bear fruit. This is sort of the nuts and bolts of folklore migration. Initially spurred on by the remoteness of populated areas, it was easy for a story to take hold and nobody say, "that sounds an awful lot like a story down in (insert town a hundred miles away or so). Many of these stories took hold and were later supported by treasure writers who shared the stories in books and magazines without citing original sources, either written or verbal. Poor sourcing meant nobody could challenge the veracity of the story or challenge the fact that many stories crop up over and over again. Treasure books and treasure writers were created for a niche audience, rarely digested in huge quantities and until the last 25 years, people had a pretty hard time "comparing notes." I think this is a big part of why the Internet has not only opened these stories to scrutiny, but culturally, people are more "sophisticated" and stories like this are on death's door where the public conscious is concerned. The big stories limp along, but before a small elite brotherhood had and discussed the information, now its freely available and is being poked to death by the more cynical among a brotherhood that hasn't grown, but has certainly become much more interactive and self-aware.

Another fantastic example of this sort of migration is "mine with the iron door" stories. With minimal research I can tell you there are well known (though not necessarily well supported) stories of "mines with an iron door" in Idaho, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico and Oklahoma...and those are merely the one's that have been written about at length. My suspicion is one of these stories had some chops...but all of them?


My quest for Montezuma also exposed me to a tendency for stories to cross pollinate. Uncle Matt's assertion that the father/daughter team have crossed their wires story-wise is a fine example. I've found writers cobbling together theories of the inter-related nature of Montezuma's Treasure with the Lost Dutchman, Victorio's Peak and the Lost Rhoades Mines. For whatever reason, there is a tendency to find comfort in connectivity and similarity, and many writers have, in my estimation, muddied the waters by combining stories with no evidence and as a result sewing crop of confusion and further apathy and disinterest in "the big stories."

These are just a couple of observations I've had as a researcher, a good source though is the Motiff Index that was printed a number of years back that describes Arizona treasure tales. There the writer tries to discredit stories by comparing similarities. I'm not suggesting that all or most of these stories are false. On the contrary, I'm simply pointing out that human nature, the evolution of technology and the bad habits of many writers have created an environment where fact and fiction may never be completely separated. If the stories are true, the twisted nest of evidences have only been made all the more difficult to separate.

I'm too much of a romantic to cast off these stories as completely the product of fancy...but anyone researching or educating themselves on a story had best know what they're up against...

 

[Randy Bradford]

I might point out that the phenomenon of cross pollination is actually the birth of this original thread, as there are many who believe there is a close relationship between the Treasure Mountain story and the LUE map. It would certainly explain a lot about the LUE if it were true, including some more subtle clues about the LUE cache sites that I've sort of been silent about. More importantly, it seems rather obvious that the Treasure Mountain story will never produce a penny in treasure UNLESS there was a verifiable waybill or map. Fact is any on site treasure signs have long been destroyed, particularly hashes on trees which would have likely died or been burned in the past 2 centuries. That leaves dumb luck and acts of nature as the most likely to uncover some of that gold, unless there is a map and it endures to this day in some bank deposit box or lodged in the pages of the ole family Bible somewhere.

 

[sdcfia]

There is a father/daughter team looking for this treasure, and supposedly even got some kind of a permit from the Forest Service. The problem is they have melded together two different stories about two different treasures and gotten them confused. They used to have a website and youtube videos posted. I will have to look and see if I can find them.

I personally think this story is just a yarn to sell newspapers. As well, that area was not frequented by Apaches as far as I know, but by the Utes.

"Stories" don't work for me either. mdog has turned up some bona-fide real Frenchmen who were onsite when all this allegedly occurred in the late 18th century, which is a great start, but from what I've read since, you might be correct about the newspaper sensationalism. This pattern is the backbone of most treasure legends - a little history, a lot of uncited details.

Zeb Pike adds to the mix too - remember, he was very close to several legendary treasure sites during his 1806-1807 explorations. He was all over the San Luis Valley and down to the Caballos in NM. Were he and the French just curious, or did they know something?

More food for thought: as you said, the writer was wrong about the Apaches' involvement - it would have been the Utes. The Utes play very prominent roles in some additional big treasure legends not only on Colorado, but especially in Utah.

Good luck to the father-daughter team. My guess is that unless they laid hands on that early French report, if it exists (or ever did), about all they'll get out of their efforts is stronger legs.

 

[UncleMatt]

Randy, I too have studied treasure tales for many years now as a cultural phenomenon. The thing that I have found to be the case is that they are all similar and prevalent due to the fact people like to cling to the idea that there is a way for them to become instantly wealthy. I call it Instant Wealth Syndrome. For some who have lived a hard life of poverty, the idea that wealth is out there just waiting to be found or discovered is very alluring. It is very similar in nature to gold fever. And the stories share similar elements simply because a simple story is the one most easily remembered, and there are only a few conditions under which a treasure can become lost in the first place. When I first started learning about treasure tales, I took them seriously as fairly accurate historical accounts. I was naive and green though. Now, after experiencing first hand and through the experiences of others their true nature, I recognize most treasure stories are fiction that were created for one purpose or another. Whether that was entertainment, promotion of tourism, sales of media (books, articles, television, etc), or just plain old mental illness.

 

[mdog]

This legend appears to hinge on the report that allegedly made its way back to New Orleans or France via the sole survivor. The fact that the earliest published accounts (supplied by you here and by Adams' books) exist at all in fair but conflicting detail seems to indicate that if such an original report exists, somebody may have used it at some point in the 1800s. If so, the cache may have been recovered long ago, but if so, it seems that we would know the whereabouts of the now-empty shaft/tunnel/well.

Also, with the great number of trappers (many French) active in the cache area ca 1820-1850 and wintering in Taos, it seems some skuttlebut should have been mentioned in the many Spanish reports, trappers's memoirs and early Santa Fe Trail info from the period. I've read a lot of the trappers and SFT stuff, but not the Spanish documents or the French - if they exist. mdog, you might have to travel to Chihuahua, New Orleans and somewhere in France to track down these possible whispers. I'd start in France.

Of course, the possibility remains that the legend was invented as a cover story loosely based on cloudy historical events in order to obscure and divert attention away from other more recent activities in the same vicinity. Wouldn't be the first time.

I don't know how Adams came up with the dates of 1799-1804 for the Lebreau Expedition or 1844-1848 for the second French expedition, maybe, as I research Villemont, I'll see something. There are events that took place during both time periods that involved huge territory transfers and put the San Luis Valley in, or close, to disputed territory.

The first time period, 1799-1804 the Lebreau Expedition, involved the transfer of Louisiana Territory from Spain back to France in 1800 and then from France to the United States in 1803. Some maps of the Louisiana Purchase show the east side of the Sangre de Cristos in Louisiana Territory. The San Luis Valley was right on the border of the United States and New Spain and Treasure Mountain was about 80 miles west of that border in New Spain. There was a movement during the 1790's, by French patriots, to reclaim Louisiana for France and hold that territory. Villemont was one of these patriots and he tried desperately to convince Napoleon to keep Louisiana.

The period of the second French expedition to Treasure Mountain, 1844-1848, took place during the annexation of Texas, 1845 and the beginning and end of the Mexican-American War, 1846-1848. These two events also involved huge transfers of land to the United States and firmly established Treasure Mountain and the San Luis Valley as part of the United States.

I guess the big question for me is, was something moved from the San Luis Valley, or an area close to it, to keep it away from the United States? And was the Treasure Mountain legend the result of these movements?

There are a couple other events that I ran across while researching Villemont. One was speculation that Napoleon wanted Jean Lafitte to move a vast amount of treasure to the United States. The other event involved an espionage mission, by Lafitte, up the Arkansas River in 1816. During this mission, Lafitte spent some time at Arkansas Post with Louis de Villemont's brother. Lafitte was supposed to be on this mission at the request of the Spanish. Here's the link.

Jean Laffite's Espionage Mission - Encyclopedia of Arkansas

The article says Lafitte went up the Arkansas until it was no longer able to be navigated. Did he continue on to the San Luis Valley?

In 1815, Napoleon had escaped from Elba and taken control of France. After his defeat at Waterloo, he planned an escape to the United States but then decided to surrender to the British. If Napoleon had escaped to the United States, did he have a treasure waiting there for him?

Throw in Aaron Burr, James Wilkinson and Zebulon Pike and their plans for an empire west of the Mississippi River, maybe with the cooperation of the French patriots in Louisiana, and you have enough research to keep you busy for a long time.

 

[lastleg]

Without C. W. McCall would there be a legend about a Treasure Mountain along the slopes of
Wolf Creek Pass? Remember TM is well outside the Colorado Mineral Belt. Does or did this matter
to the Treasure Hack Community? Hellll No.

 

[sdcfia]

Remember TM is well outside the Colorado Mineral Belt. Does or did this matter
to the Treasure Hack Community? Hellll No.

Yeah, that's been covered in the thread and is one of the reasons that the legend makes a little sense logistically. The cache site seems to have been far chosen away from the group's alleged mining activities - a security driven choice.

When you read the detailed accounts, I guess the story seems theoretically plausible from several angles, but that's certainly no proof that it's true. My main problem with it is: how could these French guys do all that mining all over Colorado and avoid detection for so long? IMO, if there was a gold cache in that area - where ever it came from - then the cache has either been recovered or relocated long ago. Treasure Mountain may be a misdirection.

 

[UncleMatt]

I spend a lot of time in the Weminuche Wilderness near Pagosa Springs each year. The idea that people would be sufficiently motivated to haul tons of gold from far away to a hiding place on Treasure Mountain is absurd. I encourage anyone who disagrees with me to spend some time there too!

 

[sdcfia]

I spend a lot of time in the Weminuche Wilderness near Pagosa Springs each year. The idea that people would be sufficiently motivated to haul tons of gold from far away to a hiding place on Treasure Mountain is absurd. I encourage anyone who disagrees with me to spend some time there too!

If you lived in those days of wooden ships and iron men, spent five years all over uncharted Colorado mining hundreds of pounds of placer gold and wanted to hide it where nobody would look for it, I don't imagine you'd complain. Just another tough job for folks who lived tough lives. Besides, despite the fact that the stories name Treasure Mountain, maybe if there was gold, it's somewhere else entirely.

 

[mdog]

This legend appears to hinge on the report that allegedly made its way back to New Orleans or France via the sole survivor. The fact that the earliest published accounts (supplied by you here and by Adams' books) exist at all in fair but conflicting detail seems to indicate that if such an original report exists, somebody may have used it at some point in the 1800s. If so, the cache may have been recovered long ago, but if so, it seems that we would know the whereabouts of the now-empty shaft/tunnel/well.

Also, with the great number of trappers (many French) active in the cache area ca 1820-1850 and wintering in Taos, it seems some skuttlebut should have been mentioned in the many Spanish reports, trappers's memoirs and early Santa Fe Trail info from the period. I've read a lot of the trappers and SFT stuff, but not the Spanish documents or the French - if they exist. mdog, you might have to travel to Chihuahua, New Orleans and somewhere in France to track down these possible whispers. I'd start in France.

Of course, the possibility remains that the legend was invented as a cover story loosely based on cloudy historical events in order to obscure and divert attention away from other more recent activities in the same vicinity. Wouldn't be the first time.

At the time of the second French expedition, 1844-1848, the San Luis Valley was part of a land grant owned by a French-Canadian living in Taos.

https://adamjamesjones.wordpress.com/2012/05/29/charles-don-carlos-beaubien-trader-judge-pioneer/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_H._Beaubien

His son-in-law was also part French.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucien_Maxwell

You would think that if the Treasure Mountain Frenchmen were wintering in Taos that they would have crossed paths with the Frenchmen living there, and, like you said, there should be something on record.

 

[UncleMatt]

If you lived in those days of wooden ships and iron men, spent five years all over uncharted Colorado mining hundreds of pounds of placer gold and wanted to hide it where nobody would look for it, I don't imagine you'd complain. Just another tough job for folks who lived tough lives. Besides, despite the fact that the stories name Treasure Mountain, maybe if there was gold, it's somewhere else entirely.

Its much easier to find a hiding place near the place you mine it from than to haul it somewhere else to hide it. But however I can think of a reasonable explanation: you don't want to be processing and smelting your ore near the place you mined it from if you want it to remain a secret. Smelting requires fire, and fire produces smoke which can be seen from a long distance away. But back then the area was very sparsely populated with Europeans, so the danger may have been from the Natives zeroing in on the mine location.

 

[UncleMatt]

If you lived in those days of wooden ships and iron men, spent five years all over uncharted Colorado mining hundreds of pounds of placer gold and wanted to hide it where nobody would look for it, I don't imagine you'd complain. Just another tough job for folks who lived tough lives. Besides, despite the fact that the stories name Treasure Mountain, maybe if there was gold, it's somewhere else entirely.

Its much easier to find a hiding place near the place you mine it from than to haul it somewhere else to hide it. But however I can think of a reasonable explanation: you don't want to be processing and smelting your ore near the place you mined it from if you want it to remain a secret. Smelting requires fire, and fire produces smoke which can be seen from a long distance away. But back then the area was very sparsely populated with Europeans, so the danger may have been from the Natives zeroing in on the mine location.

 

[UncleMatt]

I know I am arguing against my own position, but I am aware of another example of a mine farther north up the Continental Divide where the miners chose a hiding place a few days ride away from their mine. But easily navigable trails were involved that pack animals could easily use. I must admit I have not been on Treasure Mountain, and have no idea if such trails exist to use their as well.

 

[sdcfia]

Its much easier to find a hiding place near the place you mine it from than to haul it somewhere else to hide it. But however I can think of a reasonable explanation: you don't want to be processing and smelting your ore near the place you mined it from if you want it to remain a secret. Smelting requires fire, and fire produces smoke which can be seen from a long distance away. But back then the area was very sparsely populated with Europeans, so the danger may have been from the Natives zeroing in on the mine location.

That's right. Also, the ground you've lived and worked on leaves many traces, no matter how careful you've tried to obscure it before abandoning it. It may be overkill to choose such a remote virgin location for a cache site, but if it's true that many, many thousands of ounces were accumulated, it might guarantee security.

 

[mdog]

There was another article by Ward, about the Frenchmen's treasure, during the month of Sep. 1911. I'm still reading Citadel Mountain III and Maynard Adams writes about it in his story and his notes. According to Adams, Ward spent several weeks, in the autumn of 1911, interviewing people about the search for the treasure. The story was published in the magazine section of the Sunday Post throughout September. Here is note 17 from chapter 8 in Citadel Mountain III.

17. After leaving Pagosa Springs, Ward returned to Denver and interviewed Asa Poor's widow, Della E. Poor. In 1921, long after the original search ended, she used him to get another story printed in the paper. This story told about an important discovery being made, which was connected with the treasure and that the search was on again.

From the beginning, this was a total scam orchestrated by her and two partners from Lake City. After selling thousands of dollars in shares, the search was dropped.

In recent years, people have lost investments in Treasure Mountain gold scams. Treasure Mountain, beware folks! There's no treasure on Treasure Mountain. It was NEVER there.

Mdog here. Anyway, I haven't heard from the library about the rest of the 1921 story, but I'll send a message tonight and ask for that and the series from 1911.