Treasure Trove Permits

[lamar]

Dear Real de Tayopa;
One should never use Troy, or Ilium, as an example of a *legend* my friend. Troy was a REAL city, with a real population, a real king and a very real history. This has been proven time and again, not only by the vast amounts of surviving documentation but by the physical evidence as well, to include coinage, pottery, artworks, and other surviving pieces from the era. Taking this vast mountain of evidence into serious consideration, there was never any doubt that Troy exists, and the only question remained was WHERE was Troy located.

Even now the archies are not 101% positively sure that they've found Troy or even if they have discovered only ONE Troy, as there may have been other Troys built in the vicinity of the older ones. Once more, that the city existed was never in doubt, only it's location.

And now to tackle the legend of Cibola, my friend. Cibola was an OLD legend before Columbus was even concieved, to give you an idea of the age of the legend of the 7 Fabulos Cities of Cibola and Quivara. The myth started around 1150 when the Moori invaded and conquered Merida, Spain. According to legend, seven Roman Catholic Bishops fled Merida for their lives and they took with them the fabulous wealth of the city. They then travelled to a land far to the East, across the Atlantic ocean, where the Bishops then founded the twin cities of Quivara and Cibola. Eventually the tale reached such proportions that each Bishop established His own city and kingdom, built almost entirely from gold and precious gems.

The myth is wonderful in the broad strokes and it's only when one investigates further that the tale breaks down. First, Merida only had one Bishop and the particular Bishop who presided in Merida had passed away , AVM, almost two years before the Moors invaded and the Vatican had not gotten around to appointing a new one, therefore the city of Merida was without a Bishop when the Moors invaded.

Next, Merida did not have any riches to speak of, fabulous or otherwise, my friend. Most of the riches of Spain were housed in either Seville or Toledo, and Merida happened to be nothing more than a quiet country village, in fact it still is little more than a quiet country village. Next, there are over 100 variously recorded names for the 7 Bishops, yet oddly enough not a single one of those name exists in the Vatican archives.

In short, the lost cities of Cibola and Quivara make an excellent bedtime story for children, just as it did in the 10th century, however 6 year old children do not tend to ask a lot of questions, either.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

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[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"Oh ye of little faith Joe"

I didn't say I have no faith in your claims......I do. On the other hand, I am patiently waiting for you to change the history books. That hasn't occurred to this date, that I know of.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,
I think some of us may have not noticed that the post was stories passed down by Apaches as best remembered by our friend, NOT a litany re-typed from a history book. Oral legends of history can be (and often are) strikingly accurate.

Lamar wrote

Dear Real de Tayopa;
One should never use Troy, or Ilium, as an example of a *legend* my friend. Troy was a REAL city, with a real population, a real king and a very real history. This has been proven time and again, not only by the vast amounts of surviving documentation but by the physical evidence as well, to include coinage, pottery, artworks, and other surviving pieces from the era. Taking this vast mountain of evidence into serious consideration, there was never any doubt that Troy exists, and the only question remained was WHERE was Troy located. <snip> ...Once more, that the city existed was never in doubt, only it's location.

While this response was directed to our mutual amigo Real de Tayopa, I also wish to respond - and must respectfully disagree. Troy was dismissed as utter fiction for centuries, a tale made up by some poet named "Homer" to boost the tourism trade in Asia Minor. I own some older history books that say this, and it seems our modern "revisionist" historians now try to say that Troy and the Trojan war were never in doubt, only the location was! I suggest that you read some older history books for a very different view of Troy, say anything published prior to 1870.

Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Roy and everyone else,

You all should have learned a VERY long time ago, that Lamar was and always will be in the loving service of the Catholic Faith. Nobody can ever doubt his researching skills, and he ALWAYS maintains a courteous manner when dealing with those who do not share his beliefs. That's why even though we differ greatly in what we believe regarding Spanish and Jesuit Treasures (and now I guess Aztec as well), I always see him as a friend.

That said, even when shown photographs that dispute his beliefs, he steadfastly maintains that loyalty to church dogma and their official histories.

Lamar my friend,

You are mostly correct in your assessment of what happened to some of Moctezuma's Gold. When the Spanish were at first defeated and chased out of Tenochtitlan, they took with them, all the gold they could carry. Many of them were so weighed down by it, that when they fell off the causeways, they immediately sank to the bottom of the canals and drowned. Others were slowed so much by the weight, that the advancing Aztecs easily caught up with them, captured and executed them. The next part, I am not certain where I read it, but I believe that after their defeat of the Spanish, the Aztecs retrieved most of the gold the Spanish left.

For many this gold was their undoing. Encumbered by the heavy metal and greed, one third of Cortés’ retreating force fell into the canals and drowned or were overtaken by the Aztecs and subsequently sacrificed. Miguel Leon-Portilla describes, in the Aztecs own words, their efforts to recover the gold from the bodies of the drowned Spanish soldiers: “…They recovered the gold ingots, the gold disks, the tubes of gold dust and the chalchihuite collars with their gold pendants. They gathered up everything they could find and searched the waters of the canal with the greatest of care.

It is also highly doubtful that Moctezuma (actually Moctezuma II) was the one who sent the gold North. It was likely either Cuitláhuac (who succeeded Moctezuma after he died in 1520), or Moctezuma's Nephew Cuauhtémoc (who was the Aztec ruler when the Spanish returned and overran Tenochtitlan). Cuauhtemoc was the one whom the Spanish Treasurer (Aldrete) tortured (among many other nobles). Bernal Diaz wrote in his journals that they spent six weeks after the conquest of the Aztecs torturing people to find out where all the gold went. The reason they knew there was so much more gold than they found was because of what they had seen in 1519 when they were treated as guests, and were presented a large Calendar and two discs the size of wagon wheels (one of solid gold and the other of solid silver).

There was a calendar stone in gold, as big as the wheel of a cart, depicting the sun and its rays with many strange markings incised, and another wheel of highly polished silver depicting the moon. There were sculptures in gold of ducks, dogs, pumas, monkeys. There were ten magnificent and heavy gold collars, and gold necklaces inlaid with precious stones. …A bow and arrows were made of gold with even the bowstring in gold. The Spanish soldier’s guilt helmet, a little rustier than it used to be, was returned, filled with fine grains of gold.

Not long after the Spanish entered the Aztec city of Tenochtitlán through a series of political ventures and legal maneuverings the Spanish literally placed Montezuma under house arrest but managed to do so without jeopardizing their safety. While housed in Tenochtitlán the Spanish discovered recent masonry and plasterwork concealing a room full of treasure. Bernal Díaz del Castillo, one of Cortés’ men present at the time, described the incident in his journals some year later:

When it was opened Cortés and some of his Captains went in first, and they saw such a number of jewels and slabs and plates of gold and chalchihuites and other great riches, that they were carried away and did not know what to say about such wealth. The news soon spread among all the other Captains and soldiers, and very secretly we went in to see it. When I saw it I marveled, and as at that time I was a youth and had never seen such riches as those in my life before, I took it for certain that there could not be another such store of wealth in the whole world.

See,

There is ample evidence to suggest that Aztecs travelled to and spent time in Southern Utah area, as the Ute Indian Language is almost identical to Nahuatl (Uto-Aztecan is the name of the Ute Indian Language). Also, a large enough party of Aztecs (as the story supposes that the number was about 2000), would encounter no resistance from native American Indians whose various tribes numbered in the tens or hundreds (at best).

I know it's been a while since I posted, but as those of you who know me know: I like to keep things honest!

Best-Mike

 

[Springfield]

.... See,

There is ample evidence to suggest that Aztecs travelled to and spent time in Southern Utah area, as the Ute Indian Language is almost identical to Nahuatl (Uto-Aztecan is the name of the Ute Indian Language). Also, a large enough party of Aztecs (as the story supposes that the number was about 2000), would encounter no resistance from native American Indians whose various tribes numbered in the tens or hundreds (at best).

I know it's been a while since I posted, but as those of you who know me know: I like to keep things honest!

Best-Mike

Nobody has questioned whether the Mexica were in possession of copius amounts of gold in all forms, or that they recovered a substantial amount of stolen gold from the causeway following the Noche Triste, or that they secreted most of what they had before the conquerors returned after Moctezuma's death, or that their original homeland, Chicomoztoc, was probably located somewhere in present North America.

The allegation that they toted the loot from Tenochtichlan to Chicomoztoc, however, is pure speculation, with no references that I've found anywhere except on internet treasure forums, books based on barely circumstantial evidence and fuzzy logic, and of course a littany of pulp fiction treasure magazines. I would dearly love to embrace the rumor myself, and believe me, I've tried. Please provide the sources of 'ample evidence' I can read to substantiate these events. I'd prefer contemporary journals from the Conquistadors and/or reliable early ethnologists' work from the 19th Century please, not treasure-hunting pap.

 

[gollum]

Hey Springfield,

Part of the association was in what you quoted of mine. There was a strong relationship between the Aztecs and the Ute Indians of Southern Utah. The similarities between Nahuatl and the Ute Indian Language (named Uto-Azteca).

There is more information, but much of it is privately held. While I say "Privately Held" (which sounds kind of ominous), I mean that the pictures of various glyphs and artifacts are the private property of the people who possess them, and they are not likely to be philanthropic. If you know where to look, the glyphs are there for all to see. They were not destroyed or defaced in any way. They are just not easily gotten to.

What I can share is a lead for you to look into. Research the name Gordon Smith with the topic of Ice Cave Mummies. While what you will find is not nearly the whole story, or the whole truth. The real story behind his finds is amazing. Even what information he shared with the man who wrote the article is enough to at least merit serious study. The only problem with going behind him is that his site is in a protected area, where they frown heavily on digging.

Best-Mike

 

[Springfield]

Mike,
I agree there's a connection. Sure, I've located carvings such as the ones shown below and others that have a distinct 'Mexican' appearance. I also know people who, for decades, have claimed they have 'priviledged' information about the so-called Montezuma's Treasure in North America. These claims have been rampant for generations. Personally, it's my opinion that the connection has to do with the source of the Mexica's gold in North America, not a cache lugged up from Tenotchtichlan. But that's another story. My point is that the 'treasure' legend is strictly a speculative fantasy. The 'privately held' caveat doesn't fly - just another campfire tale.

The Smith story, like the Kinkaid story, the Freddy Crystal story, the Brewer cave story, etc. is interesting for sure, but one of many that are unsubstantiated. The fact that the venue lies in a protected area is encouraging, however, for the reasons that many other promising sites are also 'protected', but that too is another story. Bottom line: there's something to all this, but IMO it's time to lose the 'Montezuma's Treasure' rumor because there's no there there.

 

[lamar]

HOLA amigos,
I think some of us may have not noticed that the post was stories passed down by Apaches as best remembered by our friend, NOT a litany re-typed from a history book. Oral legends of history can be (and often are) strikingly accurate.

Lamar wrote

Dear Real de Tayopa;
One should never use Troy, or Ilium, as an example of a *legend* my friend. Troy was a REAL city, with a real population, a real king and a very real history. This has been proven time and again, not only by the vast amounts of surviving documentation but by the physical evidence as well, to include coinage, pottery, artworks, and other surviving pieces from the era. Taking this vast mountain of evidence into serious consideration, there was never any doubt that Troy exists, and the only question remained was WHERE was Troy located. <snip> ...Once more, that the city existed was never in doubt, only it's location.

While this response was directed to our mutual amigo Real de Tayopa, I also wish to respond - and must respectfully disagree. Troy was dismissed as utter fiction for centuries, a tale made up by some poet named "Homer" to boost the tourism trade in Asia Minor. I own some older history books that say this, and it seems our modern "revisionist" historians now try to say that Troy and the Trojan war were never in doubt, only the location was! I suggest that you read some older history books for a very different view of Troy, say anything published prior to 1870.

Oroblanco

Dear Oroblanco;
To further clarify my previous statement, the existence of the historical Hellenic Troy was never in doubt my friend, simply because of the vast amount of physical evidence which has always been known, however the legendary Troy, that is to state, the Troy of Paris, Hector, etc is probably nothing more than a creative tale. The epic battle, the opulent city, the wooden horse, etc, those events most likely never occurred, therefore the Troy of legend most likely never existed.

And so, from the pottery, coinage, artworks, etc the validity of a city/state known as Troy was never in doubt my friend. I seriously doubt that the excavation of the historical Troy will reveal a wooden horse, however it would not be the first time that I've been surprised, therefore we can do naught but wait and see how the excavations develop.
Your friend;
LAAMR

 

[gollum]

Lamar,

While the existence of Troy may have never been in doubt, Heinrich Schleimann received much grief for his belief that Homer's Odyssey was literally an historic event that could be proven by taking details from the book. Most Archaeologists placed Troy near the city of Pinarbarsi, while Schleimann (using ONLY descriptions from The Odyssey) began excavating near the town of Hissarlik. This turned out to be the correct location.

While we might argue all day about his ethics and personal life, his contributions to history are not in doubt (the two biggest are Troy and his discovery of the Mycenaean Civilization).

Don;'t be so quick to dismiss the possibility of the existence of the Troy of Homer. You may have to sit at the same table as all the "Professionals" that stated unequivocally that the Giant Squid "DID NOT EXIST!", the "Professionals" who stated unequivocally that Schleimann was crazy, and get served up a big slice of CROW! HAHAHA

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,
I am aware that this post was directed to our mutual amigo Gollum, but I would like to add a point so I must beg your indulgence;

Springfield wrote

The allegation that they toted the loot from Tenochtichlan to Chicomoztoc, however, is pure speculation, with no references that I've found anywhere except on internet treasure forums, books based on barely circumstantial evidence and fuzzy logic, and of course a littany of pulp fiction treasure magazines. I would dearly love to embrace the rumor myself, and believe me, I've tried. Please provide the sources of 'ample evidence' I can read to substantiate these events. I'd prefer contemporary journals from the Conquistadors and/or reliable early ethnologists' work from the 19th Century please, not treasure-hunting pap.

It strikes me "funny" to read the term "treasure hunting pap" when we are here discussing this subject in a Treasure Hunting forum, in particular a sub board with the title of "Treasure Legends". One such source, cited by treasure authors repeatedly over the years is local Amerindian legends, specifically Pima and Papago stories of Montezuma's treasure being carried by a large force of Aztecs who hid it somewhere near "Montezuma's Head", along with stories of mass executions of the bearers, any Pimas or Papagos who were caught witnessing etc. No one has ever substantiated any of these Amerindian stories beyond the evidence of some kind of massive Indios battle on top of a mesa, at least as far as I know. On this admittedly THIN evidence, several articles were published and more than one search by treasure hunters - but we ought to remember that most (or all) legends tend to be founded on facts. Some kind of incident occurred which resulted in it being memorialized in Pima (and Papago) legend to be re-told over the centuries. We know that the Aztecs did something with their gold after the Noche Triste, and that it has never been found. Is it SO far-fetched, that they may have decided to send it far away, out of the reach of the Conquistadors, where local Pima/Papago Indians saw an odd spectacle which they then "immortalized" in a legend? The place "Montezuma's Head" was named that by local Indios, not European explorers (unlike "Montezuma's Castle" which was certainly not called that by Indios.) Why should they have chosen that particular name?

The linguistic similarities may well be not much of a clue - any more than American English and British English means anything other than a common heritage.

Lamar wrote

And so, from the pottery, coinage, artworks, etc the validity of a city/state known as Troy was never in doubt my friend.

I still respectfully disagree on this point amigo, even in late Roman times the existence of Troy was in doubt. Quote
During the Renaissance, scholars were uncertain as to the location of Troy, and by the eighteenth century many historians doubted that Troy had ever existed
unquote

"Homer wrote a romance, for nobody supposes that Troy and Agamemnon existed any more than the apples of the Hesperides. He had no intention to write history, but only to amuse us."

Blase Pascal Pensées (published 1660), part ix, §628.

After the Enlightenment the stories of Troy were devalued as fables by George Grote:
In Grote, A History of Greece, vol. I (1846), "Legendary Greece" prefaces "Historical Greece to the reign of Peisistratus", and begins the "historical" section with the traditional date of the first Olympiad, 776 BCE: "To confound together these disparate matters is, in my judgement, essentially unphilosophical. I describe the earlier times by themselves, as conceived by the faith and feeling of the first Greeks, and known only through their legends,—without presuming to measure how much or how little of historical matter these legends may contain" (Preface). The "Legend of Troy"—"this interesting fable"— fills his chapter xv.

This is just a couple of examples, I am not sure where you got the impression that the existence of Troy was never in doubt amigo, but it is mistaken.

One other point, as far as I know, coins or at least coins as we think of them as coins, did not exist in the time of Troy, ~1200 BC - the first coins appeared around 600 BC in Lydia (Asia Minor) which is near but not directly associated with Troy and long after Troy had been destroyed. **<I collect ancient coins, or I would likely have not known this tidbit.>**

My apologies for drifting off topic yet again. Please do continue gentlemen.
your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

.... It strikes me "funny" to read the term "treasure hunting pap" when we are here discussing this subject in a Treasure Hunting forum, in particular a sub board with the title of "Treasure Legends". One such source, cited by treasure authors repeatedly over the years is local Amerindian legends, specifically Pima and Papago stories of Montezuma's treasure being carried by a large force of Aztecs who hid it somewhere near "Montezuma's Head" .... Is it SO far-fetched, that they may have decided to send it far away, out of the reach of the Conquistadors, where local Pima/Papago Indians saw an odd spectacle which they then "immortalized" in a legend? The place "Montezuma's Head" was named that by local Indios, not European explorers (unlike "Montezuma's Castle" which was certainly not called that by Indios.) Why should they have chosen that particular name?

Yes, Roy, this forum catagory is "Treasure Legends" and the Montezuma's-Treasure-in-North-America idea is not far-fetched at all, but as mentioned above, I just haven't seen anything but speculation to support it. I know that if the same lie is told often enough that it becomes real to later recipients, but I for one am interested in trying to pursue whatever truth may lie within the legends. Regarding the Pima/Papago stories - I've heard them too, and others, quoted in the TH rags. However, I haven't seen an ethnologist's or anthropologist's report, or a source for one, from early (untainted) interviews with the Pimas or Papagos. I'd love to, but I'm guessing this reference, like so many others, is merely a convenient phantom. I remain open-minded, however. As far as the source of the "Montezuma's Head" placename is concerned, well, Montezuma's name is associated with several places in the Southwest. Named by whom, and for what reason? Could be the local natives out of veneration (Northern New Mexico still supports a heavy Montezuma influence, particularly at Taos Pueblo), could be later Anglos for romantic effect, could be because that's where the loot is buried. I'm forced to accept doors one and two at this time.

 

[gollum]

Springfield and Oro,

I researched everything I could find and could find no REAL mention (other than interpreted glyphs) of how those stories came to be, and if they REALLY originated with either of those Nations. Funny how those stories are generally accepted as fact, and nobody thinks to ask the Tribes themselves.

I just went to both of their Tribal Nation Websites, and emailed their historians about those stories. I'll post the replies.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Gracias Mike!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Gollum waiting

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. I hope that you noticed that I spelled your name correctly this time Mike, had to bite my tongue to do that, I hope that you are appreciative.

 

[Oroblanco]

Just have a bit more to add, on Montezuma's Head - among Papagos it is also believed to be home of a god or powerful spirit. <Extract >

*Iitoi Mo'o (Montezuma's Head) and 'Oks Daha (Old Woman Sitting), Pima County, Arizona. [NR 1994] This rock formation is sacred to the Tohono O'odham people. According to their tradition the rock outcrop is associated with the deity I'itio and his instructions to the people about living and surviving in the desert.

<From "Historic preservation : oversight hearing before the Subcommittee on National Parks, Forests, and Lands of the Committee on Resources, House of Representatives, One Hundred Fourth Congress, second session, on H.R. 3031, a [sic] amend the act of October 15, 1966 (80 Stat. 915) as amended, establishing a program for the preservation of additional historic property through out the nation, and for other purposes; H.R. 563, to amend the National Historic Preservation Act to prohibit the inclusion of certain sites on the National Register of Historic Places, and for other purposes; H.R. 1179, to authorize appropriations for the preservation and restoration of historic buildings at historically black colleges and universities, March 20, 1996--Washington, DC" >


I have not had much luck contacting tribal historians, at least not with those I have tried. There may be other leads on this one, as far as identifying the source(s) used by the treasure writers anyway. This could take a while...
Oroblanco

 

[capndan151]

great discussion

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

MR. JSCOTTWOOD Are you still with us? Very Curious? Sincerely John V. Kemm

 

[Oroblanco]

MR. JSCOTTWOOD Are you still with us? Very Curious? Sincerely John V. Kemm

Our amigo Scott has not been active here since Sep 08, 2009, probably does not have time to spend with us.
Oroblanco

 

[Peerless67]

Although he has not been active he did leave his email and telephone number should anyone feel the need to contact him.

602 225-5231 and e-mail is [email protected].

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Scott Wood for the public record here is a copy proof of the letter i sent you on 8/26/09 SCOTT WOOD THIS IS URGENT AND VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!‏
8/26/09
true spectrumTo [email protected]
From: true spectrum ([email protected])
Sent: Wed 8/26/09 4:31 PM
To: [email protected]


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