Turkeytail in Texas, Is it possible?

[Smurufett]

Okay, so I have thought about this for days. Looked thourgh all my books to id the artifact in question and I keep coming back to only one conclusion,it is a turkey tail. But they are not know to be found in Texas right? Years ago I found the site were this one was found. I have searched it for many years and it always produces very well. A few days ago was no exeception. I have done much research and am familar with articles writen about the Adena culture. My site here in Texas has always nagged at the back of mind for some reason. It is very different from other sites I have here. I always thought this site might just be an Adena site in Texas. It is the lay of the land and were I find artifacts that has made me think this. Artifacts are scattered for miles over the site. I find every time period at this site from paleo to woodland. There are several mound like hills that cover several hundered yards. I plan on going back and digging this week sometime. But this one artifact has me dumb- founded. I will be posting pic shortly..........
For now I would just like to know other peoples opinions.
Could there be turkey tails found in Texas?
Could the Adena culture have come this far south?

 

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[Neanderthal]

Okay, so I have tought about this for days. Looked thourgh all my books to id the artifact in question and I keep coming back to only one conclusion,it is a turkey tail. But they are not know to be found in Texas right? Years ago I found the site were this one was found. I have searched it for many years and it always produces very well. A few days ago was no exeception. I have done much research and am familar with articles writen about the Adena culture. My site here in Texas has always nagged at the back of mind for some reason. It is very different from other sites I have here. I always thought this site might just be an Adena site in Texas. It is the lay of the land and were I find artifacts that has made me think this. Artifacts are scattered for miles over the site. I find every time period at this site from paleo to woodland. There are several mound like hills that cover several hundered yards. I plan on going back and digging this week sometime. But this one artifact has me dumb- founded. I will be posting pic shortly..........
For now I would just like to know other peoples opinions.
Could there be turkey tails found in Texas?
Could the Adena culture have come this far south?

Most likely what you have is a Neosho blade. They can look identical to a "Turkeytail", but are much later. They are related to (a variant thereof) a Harahey knife. Named after the Grand/Neosho waterway....they are pretty common in Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas, Ark, etc.

 

[dblski]

I believe anything is possible, we learn new things everyday. The ancients had to have had people in their tribes who wanted to explore and see the world. I know that was not the common thing but over thousands of years there had to be some native americans from every culture who wanted to travel. I am no expert but it seems very plausible to me.
Jake

 

[Smurufett]

Heres some pics.....

 

[Smurufett]

Here is another arrowhead/ point and some gypsum crystals that were found at the same time at the site.

 

[SA HeadHunter]

That looks like the Turkey's I've found in NE OK/SW MO/N Ark.

Nice find. Question: Where in Texas are you.... If in E. Texas, I could see some trade migration of the point, etc...but in other areas, it would be hard to place.

 

[Smurufett]

Thanks for all the comments so far. This site is in East Texas.

 

[Neanderthal]

That looks like the Turkey's I've found in NE OK/SW MO/N Ark.

Uhhh...I'd like to see those. Red Ochre culture is a ways away (not to mention made very distinctly) and there are too many other types that look T-tail to confuse them with. Neosho and Sekan are mistaken for them on a regular basis.

Heres some pics.....

Smurfette, is that beveled? Beveling is often evident on Neosho's after being resharpened numerous time. If it's Neosho, then it's very early form without much resharpening. They are made with soft hammer percussion and usually decently well random flaked.

Another possibility (and judging from the pic, a very GOOD possibility) is a notched "Gary" point. Yes, they do occur....very rarely. I can count on one hand the number of them I have seen. They are incredibly rare, but do happen on occasion. I have found thousands of Gary's in my life, but only found a single "notched" one. They basically are a contracting stemmed Gary, but with slight notches placed high up on the stem - it gives it the T-tail look. Years ago I screwed up and sold the only one I found. I bought it back when the opportunity arose, and have it still. The fellow who bought it from me had it papered by an authenticator who put "Turkeytail" on the coa. I found it incredibly humorous (there's a long story involved) and I can't help but to giggle every time I look at it. Perino also had one in his collection, it's on museum display now. I have seen another come from Kansas (a damn nice one) and another from eastern Texas.

 

[Tnmountains]

Wow
You can always count on this site to help you out. Sounds like you need to get these guys a good clear picture sounds like you may have found a rare one. As I type I am looking at a Turkey tail from Harrison,Tn but yours looks diffrent ??

 

[Smurufett]

Smurfette, is that beveled? Beveling is often evident on Neosho's after being resharpened numerous time. If it's Neosho, then it's very early form without much resharpening. They are made with soft hammer percussion and usually decently well random flaked.

Actually, yes it is beveled on one side. I can't belive you could tell that from the pic. Good eye! And it does have that resharpened look and feel. It is kinda thick feeling toward the tip. Like it was bigger at some point in time and reworked. Also the site were it was found produces alot of nice Gary type points. I have also seen one notched Gary in my collecting years but it is more of a classic type Gary with the notches higher upon the base. This is why I didn't think this point was one. I don't know if that is what this one is but it would be nice! My friend is suppost to help me take better pic.s tomarrow. My husband and I, also did some digging at the site today and found a few nice Gary types, a Lange, and some Waco sinkers. I will try to get good pics of them, too. Also, here is a link about the Adena culture that was my oringinal reference. My site does have some strong similarities.

http://www.cabrillo.edu/~crsmith/adena.html

 

[Smurufett]

And the gypsum crystals we found.... throw me off, too. I don't think they are commonly found in Texas. And I know that they are not quartz because I can scrape them with my finger nail. They are not as hard as quartz. They were washing out of a washout and the point held beside them was a few feet away at the bottom. I have hills off in the distance. Long continous mounds that run beside the creek. Then I have about 4 miles of searchable creek banks/bed were I find most of my artifacts. I always thought the mounds might have been made in more recent times by farmers as retaining walls or something. The pasture/field just kinda drops off into the creek right after the mounds. But I am starting to wonder if they are in fact something else. Maybe, burrials Werid thing is I have never, in the 7 years I have been searching the site, found any pottery or pottery shards. No sign of pottery at all. I find pottery shards at most of my other sites here in Texas but not this one.

 

[Neanderthal]

With the beveling, it is most likely a Neosho. Neosho and Sekan are both variants of the Harahey that often have diamond shaped bases.
You won't find this information in print, but here are the differences between the two.

There are at least at 5 different varieties of the "Harahey". You have the regular 4 bevel, a 3 bevel (one of the most rare and they seem to be isolated to certain areas), 2 bevel - a.k.a "snakehead", Neosho and Sekan.

Sekan stands for "Southeast Kansas", the area they were first recognized. They are 4 bevel and really just a modified 4-bevel Harahey. They have notches placed up on one end, sometimes even as far up as the middle of the blade. The end with the notches is heavily ground / smoothed. Notches are done after they have been beveled from many resharpenings. Basically, they look like a regular Harahey with a heavily ground diamond base.

Neosho is for the Grand / Neosho waterway that runs through northeast Oklahoma. The base is fashioned on them early in manufacture and it is quite varied. The basal configuration can range from a stem, side notches, to a diamond shaped base. On many examples, the rind from the stone is left on the base. The most prevalent basal configuration is Diamond shaped. It's surmised that they were not hafted, but used as a suspension knife like the corner and base tang knives. I'll see if I can't attach a pic or two of some Neosho's to this post.

The Adena culture didn't inhabit Texas. In fact, you won't hardly see much sign of Adena west of the Mississippi River. One of my biggest peeves in collecting are the terms "Adena Waubesa" and "Adena Dickson". We can thank early Overstreet and a few other publications for that. It tainted collectors (at one time, me too) with the notion that there was Adena much further west than there really is. Waubesa NOR Dickson are Adena.They are both middle woodland Hopewell forms. They did most likely derive from the Adena stemmed forms, but they are much later and made by a completely different people. You have to go by the cultures that made them, not form, or people would also be trying to call the Parman, Lind Coulee and every other stemmed form on the planet Adena. The fact of the matter is that there are stemmed forms everywhere, made by different people. They were simple to make, easily hafted and worked well. It is so efficient that they are one of the only forms used in all time periods.


Below is a pic of a Neosho, found by Jerry Branstedder in NE Oklahoma when we were hunting a local lake. It's around 5" or so long. The notches on this one are much wider than is typical.