Undiscovered treasure galleons

[Mackaydon]

CP:
From the referenced given by Panfilo above, you can see I've "been there, done that and have the T-shirt to prove it" Like many of us, we've heard the stories for years; and some teams, like the Long Beach doctor's (RIP) and mine have been there in the post-Marx era. I have heard and read about artifacts being recovered by none that could be specifically attributed to the "1605s".
What I did discover (and have mentioned on TH before) is the 1690 entry in the British records noting that the 5th rated, Drake, was sent to 'Sarah' to protect British interests from the French who were interfering with the British salvaging a treasure ship. I'm aware of only one possibility; one or more of the "1605s". (The log of the Drake in those years is "Missing, presumed stolen" at Kew Gardens.) Yet I have not read of anyone researching the French records regarding their activity at "Sarah". If those records exist and can be read, more light might be shed on the fate (and location) of one or more "1605s".
Don.........

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A Handbook of Civil War Bullets and Cartridges - Grab it through Amazon!

[Colombiapictures]

CP:
From the referenced given by Panfilo above, you can see I've "been there, done that and have the T-shirt to prove it" Like many of us, we've heard the stories for years; and some teams, like the Long Beach doctor's (RIP) and mine have been there in the post-Marx era. I have heard and read about artifacts being recovered by none that could be specifically attributed to the "1605s".
What I did discover (and have mentioned on TH before) is the 1690 entry in the British records noting that the 5th rated, Drake, was sent to 'Sarah' to protect British interests from the French who were interfering with the British salvaging a treasure ship. I'm aware of only one possibility; one or more of the "1605s". (The log of the Drake in those years is "Missing, presumed stolen" at Kew Gardens.) Yet I have not read of anyone researching the French records regarding their activity at "Sarah". If those records exist and can be read, more light might be shed on the fate (and location) of one or more "1605s".
Don.........

Don, thank you for your input. Your information is an important piece of the puzzle.

There are many shipwrecks in the Serranillas. I feel that 1690 is a long time after the happening and for sure there were quite a few ships wrecked in the 85 years. Serranilla was extremely dangerous on the lee side of the route, where the wind and the currents would push any disabled ship.
There is something that bothers me with this location. The Serranilla bank was well known. If you approach it from the west, it is not dangerous, it offers you a safe anchorage. For sure salvage expeditions were sent there to look immediately upon the return of the San Cristobal to Cartagena, if not for survivors, then at least for the great amount of treasure that was lost.
The salvage expeditions (how many were there?) don't seem to have found any sign of the shipwrecks, with the exception of some rigging on the Pedro Bank. (clue?)
You have been there. You have seen how the wrecking would get washed over the reef with the prevailing winds and currents yourself. The salvage expedition right after the disaster would have found traces, specially along the beaches of the small islands (amazing how much flotsam one finds there nowadays) and this would be recorded.

I know only little of the story, but maybe if we can patch together all the little pieces that all the members of this forum know, we might get a more complete picture.

So let's start with a location that seems to be fairly solid. 16 degrees latitude. We know that the mariners of that time had a fairly accurate way to keep track of the latitude.
The day before the fearful Northers arrive is usually sunny with a strong south easterly wind and currents. (have you weathered a Norther there?) So they probably had a chance to shoot the sun with their astrolabes, for a correct latitude. Besides that they would track their position as accurately as possible by dead-reckoning and being only few days out of Cartagena, with normal sailing conditions, their estimated position must have been quite accurate.
Longitude was the difficult part. Specially there, in that passage, because of the strong, but irregular currents pushing the ship to the west. I seem to remember some information that says something about some doubt about their longitude. I need to check that out.

Anyway, let's take it from here. Who can add another piece to the puzzle

CP

 

[Mackaydon]

CP,
As for me, I content, with the exception of the 'French connection' mentioned above, to believe the remaining "1605s" sank at sea.
Don.........

 

[Colombiapictures]

CP,
As for me, I content, with the exception of the 'French connection' mentioned above, to believe the remaining "1605s" sank at sea.
Don.........

Hey Don, don't give up so fast.
I am sure you know more. Of course, considering that the wind and wave damage was great on the San Cristobal and that the Patache was found lying on its side, the possibility that the galleons sank in deep water, has to be considered.

Let's look at another piece of the puzzle. "LAS VIBORAS" The location of Las Viboras is not entirely clear. On the map above, the location corresponds to Pedro Bank. Other charts and maps need to be consulted.
CP

 

[Colombiapictures]

CP:
Regarding the Cordoba fleet, your initial question, let me clarify some of your affirmations: the wreck did not occur on All Saints Day, November 1st, that is when they left Cartagena, they wrecked on the evening of Sunday November 6th/ early November 7th. Curiously Potter erroneously places this event in January 1605, not like him to make this mistake. 2) For sure one was found, some of us believe maybe two and according to Claudio perhaps a third was found. 3) There was salvage on the ones found. 4) “Where on this chart did the disaster happen?” We all know, it happened in Serranilla…of course CP except for one authority. I forget which one of the renowned “experts”, perhaps Fernandez Duro places this event near the Venezuelan coast…I believe he might have come across some mind altering weed when he wrote this.

Claudio also states that there was a survivor among the crew of the San Roque, I don’t believe this though I’m confident Claudio found such an original authentic document. I believe there were liars in 1605 that made false statements. Then there is the Isla Misteriosa story or legend you might want to read in his fascinating book. I spent close to ten years researching this story and concluded that it was all made up by a Flemish prisoner who wanted out from a Spanish jail, maybe under similar circumstances we all would make up such an imaginary story.
Panfilo

I never heard of the "Isla Misteriosa" story, but I seem to remember a Misteriosa bank or shoal. Have you heard about the "Far Tortuga Island" legend from Jamaica? An old legend circulating among the Jamaican fishermen, of a shoal with a tiny island that was found occasionally but could never been found again when they wanted to go back?

Original documents could probably tell a lot more.
CP

 

[Mackaydon]

CP:
Admittedly, I'd have more fun today picking through the bones of the Kearsarge. The Kearsarge ran aground on Roncador Cay off the Nicaraguan coast. Recognizing the ship's significance (she sank the Confederacy's greatest raider, the Alabama), Congress, back in the day, authorized $45,000 to raise the ship and tow it home, however the salvagers found that this could not be done and the vessel was declared a loss.
I have a chart that marks "X" as the location of that loss, but I never got there; opting instead to continue my (futile) search for a "1605".
Don....

 

[Mackaydon]

CP,
The "Isla Misteriosa" story is another one that will have you drooling, until you pump thousands into trying to find it. I thought it referred to the Swan Islands off Honduras--and spent a ton of money in those waters--coming up empty--except for the adventure-which was ALMOST worth the expense. Get a copy of that map then read the story; most interesting. And while you're at it, you might also enjoy Nora Sterling's book, 'Treasure Under the Sea'--and her story of Drake dumping 40 tons of silver before heading west from So. Am.
Don.....

 

[Goldminer]

Don,
I also do not believe the 1605's are on the Serranilla's. I believe the 4 lost galleons were even above Pedro Bank when they turned west. BTW, I saw a capstan from the Kearsarge sitting on the beach at Cayman Brac in 1989.

 

[treasurediver]

CP,

get hold of copies of the following documents:
Archivo de las Indias
Seccion Contratacion, legajo 4920, 3 folios
legajo 2899, Libro II, folio 328V
legajo 5113, 2 folios
Seccion Indiferente, legajo 1122, 23 folios

for starters. Compute all the information contained therein about the various information pointing to locations, navigation and the place where debris were found by the original salvage expedition.
This will lead you to a place that does not exist on the maps that you posted above.

But the place exists. I have been there. And I am sure the wrecks are there.

Compute the information and you will come to the same conclusion.

If you do, send me a mail and we will talk.

Treasurediver

 

[Mackaydon]

Goldminer,
Interesting. Pedro Bk. and Swan Is. are on the same lat.
We also searched the Misteriosa Bank for sunken land masses; again,zip.
Don.......

 

[treasurediver]

Curiously Potter erroneously places this event in January 1605, not like him to make this mistake.

Potter starts his chapter on the wrecks of the Azores, stating that the archipelago has 10 islands.

In fact, there are only nine of them. So much for Potter's credibility.

Do the Formigas count as an island of the Azores?

Could this be the place where one of Duguay Trouin's galleons, laden with halve of the immense plunder of the raid on Rio De Janeiro in 1722 sank?

Treasurediver

 

[Vox veritas]

Hi,
about Swan Island story. In my book Galleons with treasure (I hope will be released in English in July), I give to know the history of Antwerp pilot Simon Zacarias. The information I have to know is a true reflection of what I found in historical documents. I have not added or removed anything. Everyone is free to believe or not believe. I am sure that future research may clarify this amazing story.
Cheers VV

 

[Mackaydon]

Claudio,
I look forward to the English release of your latest book.
Don........

 

[Salvor6]

Don do you remember hearing a story about the spar of the San Roque found washed asore on an island off Nicaragua?

 

[Mackaydon]

Salvor6:
I've heard stories regarding the main islands between the 80th and 82nd long. and south of the 15 lat.
Though they are off Nic., my recollection is there were controlled and occupied by the Colombians. As to your specific Q, 'no' I don't recall that fact. Then again, occasionally, I forget what day it is.
I do recall that you and I and others have been chatting about "Serah" for years on these threads. It would seem to me that if these vessels had run up on some reef or isle in the area, by now we would have heard. This is why I continue to lean on the possibility they were lost at sea.
Best,
Don....

 

[Salvor6]

Yes Don, we have discussed this over the years and after talking with Eric White I am convinced that the San Roque did not wreck on Seranilla. Pacific Geographic Co. from Long Beach CA went out there and did not find it. I think the San Roque sank in deep water on the high seas and the spar drifted ashore on a remote island.

 

[Chagy]

Maybe learning more about the hurricane could give us a better idea as to where the ships might have ended up. How many M.P.H.? The exact path, ect….I looked it up in “Hurricanes of the Caribbean” By Carlos Millas But there is very little information about the hurricane it self….

 

[Vox veritas]

Claudio,
I look forward to the English release of your latest book.
Don........

Don,
will be a pleasure for me that you read my book in English. About the San Roque, we must not forget that the Spanish in 1606 say they have found remains of the almiranta or capitana floating in the Escudo de Veragua, Panama. In a letter of the Governor of Cuba he wrote, on April 2, 1606 to the King of Spain, which appeared in the Escudo de Veragua the integer bowsprit rigging and sails and could only be the almiranta or capitana, and it sank in high seas.
VV

 

[Colombiapictures]

Maybe learning more about the hurricane could give us a better idea as to where the ships might have ended up. How many M.P.H.? The exact path, ect….I looked it up in “Hurricanes of the Caribbean” By Carlos Millas But there is very little information about the hurricane it self….

Thanks for adding your knowledge to the discussion. Little piece by little piece we are getting the puzzle together.
Computing the storm track is definitely a primary necessity.
I believe that it was a Norther, not a hurricane. This fleet probably waited for the end of the hurricane season. By November, the season of the Northers has started. The Northers are associated with cold fronts. The characteristic wind pattern of the cold fronts favors the navigation under sail in this region. Unfortunately, sometimes the cold front comes through with great violence, usually during only a few hours.
This weather pattern seems to be fitting the descriptions.

CP

 

[Goldminer]

This is a shaky translation that I can't remember it's origin.
" Finally, on Tuesday, first of November 1605, the galleons capitana San Roque, almiranta Santo Domingo, San Ambrosio, Nuestra Señora de Begoña, San Cristobal, San Martin, San Gregorio, the ship San Pedro and the patache of armada weigh anchor of the Colombian port. After having taken direction NNW and finally SW, on Sunday 6, when of it found the armada in height of 16 scarce degrees and to Pedro Bank east, to the exit of the sun it loaded the very strong wind, navigating all to the E until the midnight that went when they veered to the S. In that moment in many of the ships they had mishaps that caused many damages. The day 8 in the morning, they were sighted among if the galleons San Gregorio, San Martin and the ship San Pedro. For people of this last ship it was known that the patache had keeled without nobody survived. Of common agreement they decided to make direction for Jamaica, that estimated to be to 20 leagues. The day 18 it arrived in Cartagena the San Cristóbal completely destroyed, having been able to navigate to bad hardships. The four remaining galleons, the richest and strong, they were seen by last time navigating heading for the W."
Concerning the bowsprit, this as well.
" but of the four galleons, to part of having appeared floating the figurehead with their bowsprit of the capitana or of the almiranta in the Escudo de Veragua (Panama) there were not more news neither survivors appeared."