Update: Gold Pelican of the 1715 Fleet

[captbonnie]

Hi all,
I am getting used to the question "Whatever happened to that Gold Bird you found"

So here is a bit of an update: since August of 2010 it has been held by 1715 Fleet Queens Jewels in their role as Custodian of the 1715 Fleet leases. At the end of February, title to the 2010 season finds was received from the United States District Court, Southern District of Florida. The beautiful bronze swivel gun found by Capt. Greg Bounds and the Gold Hound crew went to the State of Florida as a donation. I am sure everyone is hoping it will be on display soon with full credit to the Gold Hound team. The Gold Pelican was granted to the salvors - it is now time for Queens Jewels and myself to move on to the next step. The Pelican will need to be sold - that is the economic reality and what will, with hard work and good fortune, lead to the recovery of other artifacts.
It is my wish that the Pelican is displayed, at least for a time, on the Treasure Coast where it was found. I am working on this now and will keep you posted. The ultimate would be to have it displayed permanently, through a process of donations, in a museum. There has been some support for raising funds to donate the Pelican to the Vero Beach Museum of Art, however, the Museum has in place strict guidelines as to their permanent collection: the focus is on 20th and 21st century art.
"Gold Hawg" is back in the water and ready to dig -still need to find that other wing! 1st mate Mom says she is tired of all my treasure TALK and ready to see some More come Ashore...

Pelican is in Arts & Theater section in the March 1,2012 issue of Vero Beach 32963 - starts on p 24 - story on page 29: http://www.verobeach32963.com/ebooks/VB32963_OEI09_01March2012/?page=24

Capt. Bonnie - Gold Hawg

 

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[Shawmen]

Bonnie~
Sounds like everything is working out very amicably for your side on the recovery...VERY happy to hear that, as I too have been curious as to how the division played out. Best of luck to you and Momma Jo on the 2012 season!!! There's still plenty more to be recovered!

Keep it safe out there...
Santini

 

[Darren in NC]

Re: Alexandre, can you help?

Alexandre, this was one of the most fascinating pieces posted on this forum a few years ago. Not because of the gold, but due to her history. To date, no one knows what this bird was actually used for. It has been established that it depicts a "pelican in piety," but it's usage remains a mystery. Ideas have ranged from a candle holder, pyx, oil lamp, ampule (anointing oil bulb holder) and so forth. It may have been nothing less than extravagant ornate jewelry. Do you have any contacts that could possibly shed light on her usage and purpose?

Bonnie, thanks so much for the update. I am reminded with emotion how richly this piece calls out the history hunter in all of us. I pray all the best for you and Mama Jo this year!

Darren

 

[ScubaFinder]

Bonnie, I'm so glad the division worked out that way for you. I wish Greg and crew could have kept their cannon, but I bet they got most of their coins back so all is well. I'm still so proud and envious of you gals, you constantly display what us "amateur history hunters" should be about. You and Jo have a grit and determination that most of us men can only admire and aspire to. BIG congrats and hugs to both of you, and all the best this season! Let the wing hunt begin!

 

[Alexandre]

Re: Alexandre, can you help?

It has been established that it depicts a "pelican in piety," but it's usage remains a mystery.

Who established that? I agree the overall image does look like a pelican in pietá- a very well know symbol for Jesus, motherhood and sorrow and repent - but the beak is wrong, as is that tail.

The feet also seem wrong for a pelican (cant tell precisely, no good pictures for that detail): they seem to look like eagle's talons instead of feet with an interdigit membrane.

Anyhow, it looks like a reliquary. Maybe some rock crystal is missing there..

 

[Darren in NC]

Your skepticism about the pelican is understood. I thought the same as did many others. The feet don't exactly look like talons, but thay aren't clearly webbed, either. But a little research will reveal that pelicans, phoenixes, and eagles were interchanged often in historical art. My question for you was did you know of any experts who might shed light on the matter?

 

[Alexandre]

Your skepticism about the pelican is understood. I thought the same as did many others. The feet don't exactly look like talons, but thay aren't clearly webbed, either. But a little research will reveal that pelicans, phoenixes, and eagles were interchanged often in historical art. My question for you was did you know of any experts who might shed light on the matter?

Yes, I do know such a person, check your PM inbox.

 

[Darren in NC]

Thank you, Alexandre. Much appreciated. I like your suggestion about it being a reliquary. It makes the most sense so far.

 

[captbonnie]

thanks guys..

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/Eglise_Sainte-Aurélie_de_Strasbourg-Pélican.JPG
the above link - pelican with same neck, wing but yes tail is different

Alexandre - Dr. Eugene Lyon was the first to tell us of the Pelican of Piety "id" of the bird - he also indicated that it is most likely a reliquary -which has been supported by others.
Any input is still most welcome and appreciated. My funds are limited for further research - the best I can do is try to find some more clues in the area. I admit without embarrassment that I do have a sentimental attachment to this gold bird. The logic is in my mind, but the memory of the find I can't shake. Alexandre, you speak of the "capitalist" in treasure hunters...what do you say of the emotion that comes from putting your hand down into the sand and lifting out something that takes your heart away with it's beauty ... what are we supposed to do about that?

 

[Alexandre]

Alexandre - Dr. Eugene Lyon was the first to tell us of the Pelican of Piety "id" of the bird - he also indicated that it is most likely a reliquary -which has been supported by others.

It could well be a reliquary with phoenix (there's a raised protuberance in its head and it could well have its talons over flames, where that fleur de lis is).

If it is a phoenix, then it would be the perfect bird to hold whatever ashes or bones or human remains it would be having inside the reliquary as it would remind the bearer of the bird's power for ressurection.

If it is a phoenix and it is a jewel connected with a noble family, the better. Only 0,12% of the Spanish noble families used the Phoenix on their crest. Around the 1700´s at least 5 noble families from Spain used it: the Cesarín, from Gallicia, the Carnicer family, from Aragon, the Vivas and Llupia families, from Catalonya and the Zaforteza, from Mallorca. Maybe then someone could trace one of these gentleman to a specific wreck.

Alexandre, you speak of the "capitalist" in treasure hunters...what do you say of the emotion that comes from putting your hand down into the sand and lifting out something that takes your heart away with it's beauty ... what are we supposed to do about that?

I would say get it into a museum.

 

[Jones Indiana]

If I understand it right Queen's Jewels doesn't have the funds to do any research or establish provenance? Or they just choose not to? Or is all of this on Bonnie to fund the research?

I also wonder how many cubic yards/tons you will have to search through to find the missing wing/parts etc. Hate all that work...........

I thought these wrecks had wreck distribution maps?

Indy

 

[ScubaFinder]

Jones,

Queen's Jewels LLC spent money to have one of the best researchers in the industry provide his opinion about this artifact. He did just that, but with any "interpretive art" there will be people who will disagree, and maybe people who will actually prove him wrong. It is not always an exact science, they hired the best they had available and he did a great job.

Only god knows if the other wing will be found, but you can bet Bonnie and Joe will be out there trying as long as they are able. There are very detailed artifact distribution maps for all known 1715 wreck sites. They are incredible if you purchase Autocad and can get your hands on the source files. They are layered, so you can look at everything, just empty holes, just ceramics, or just gold if you wish. Bill Moore put an incredible amount of time into the project, and it is top notch. Modern day salvors would have a lot harder job if they didn't have Taffi and Bill's vision and hard work to rely on.

 

[Jones Indiana]

Thanks Jason

Maybe Mr. Moore could give her a idea where to look at?
Or maybe it's already been looked at from this perspective?

Indy

 

[ScubaFinder]

I would imagine that Bonnie and Joe chose this spot based on Bill's charts, logic would seem to point at the wing being found close to the bird in my eyes. Things have a way of eluding you in a 10 foot column of sand though. In Jupiter, we went back over an area that has been worked at least 15 times in the past. In a 50ft square box, we brought 100 silver coins, 3 gold coins, and three rare Star of Lima coins. I myself had worked the area years before, and Scott (SeaHunter) had worked it at least 5 or 6 times in the 20 years he's been working the site. Finding an actual needle in an actual haystack would be much easier and less time consuming. :-)

 

[Jones Indiana]

Interesting redistribution patterns. Seems nature and the actions of men changes the patterns.
Unlike other distribution patterns which can become fixed.

At least their in the ball park.............doing what they love

 

[Alexandre]

Jones,

Queen's Jewels LLC spent money to have one of the best researchers in the industry provide his opinion about this artifact. He did just that, but with any "interpretive art" there will be people who will disagree, and maybe people who will actually prove him wrong. It is not always an exact science, they hired the best they had available and he did a great job.

I wonder who he is and how much did it cost.

Still think it is a phoenix.

 

[Jones Indiana]

If I'm not mistaken Dr Lyon goes way back into the early days of Mel Fisher.
i have never meant him or dealt with him personally or professorially.

I learned years ago degrees titles rank or wealth doesn't necessarily equate intelligence or competence.

Indy

 

[ScubaFinder]

I learned years ago degrees titles rank or wealth doesn't necessarily equate intelligence or competence.

Truer words were never spoken Indy.

In Dr. Lyon's case I think his experience speaks well for him. Without him, the Atocha and Margarita would still be hidden under the sand. I honestly don't think it matters much to humanity whether that is a golden pelican or a golden phoenix. To 99% of the population of the earth, it's a golden bird and it's cool as heck. We don't need an archaeological report to tell us that. :-)

Jason

 

[Alexandre]

Truer words were never spoken Indy.

In Dr. Lyon's case I think his experience speaks well for him. Without him, the Atocha and Margarita would still be hidden under the sand. I honestly don't think it matters much to humanity whether that is a golden pelican or a golden phoenix. To 99% of the population of the earth, it's a golden bird and it's cool as heck. We don't need an archaeological report to tell us that. :-)

As for knowledge, either you have or either you dont have it - I agree it is not a question of degrees.


But, if you don't need an archaeological report, nor does it matter what bird is it, then I will keep my mout shut and will stop my free, pro bono, research on this.

I, too, am learning some lessons here..

 

[Darren in NC]

But, if you don't need an archaeological report, nor does it matter what bird is it, then I will keep my mout shut and will stop my free, pro bono, research on this.

Depends on who you ask. Does it matter to humanity what my son's name is? No. But it matters to me and hundreds of others who care about him.

Does it matter to humanity whether the bird is a pelican, phoenix or eagle? No. But it matters to Bonnie, Jo, me and hundreds, if not thousands, of others.

Never stop researching...someone cares.