Video 4 - The Peralta Stone Maps with Frank Augustine

[coazon de oro]

I hope I'm not out of luck then . Like I said in the video - it's crucially important to find both sides. The work of Gary Cundiff is phenomenal and intelligent. Where is his antithesis ?

Howdy Ryan,

I don't understand what you mean when you say it's crucially important to find both sides. Only the truth matters, nothing else does.

When I post to point out some things, I do it for those who follow these threads in search for answers to form their own opinions. I as many enjoy watching your videos.

I have never had the pleasure of meeting, or debating with Garry Cundiff. I have great respect for his work, and his interest for finding the truth. I am sure he is an intelligent man, but his efforts in proving that Travis made the PSM's fell short from phenomenal.

By comparing the letters of the PSM's with the Boat/Treasure Chest stone that Travis made, Garry believed it showed Travis to be the creator of the PSM's. The only thing the letters show is that Travis copied the lettering from the PSM's to make his Boat/Treasure Chest Stone.

The wording comparison proves that Travis was incapable of creating the PSM's. You can forget about misspelled words, Travis used an English word on his stone, and got the gender wrong on the Spanish. The gender on the PSM's is correct. This is not an assumption, this is a clear fact that reveals the truth.

Homar

 

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[Tnmountains]

...

 

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper,
Your words carry some weight with me but here we must part ways. There is nothing about that individual that interests me. Just being honest.

Hal,

It would see that something does interest you. If not, just ignore his posts.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

It would see that something does interest you. If not, just ignore his posts.

Good luck,

Joe

A chiseled rock found at one of the possible discovery sites should interest everyone. How could it not? I don't actually understand Dave's roll in the discovery of Franks red rock but he has certainly injected himself into the story. I hold no hard feelings for Dave and I am sure that off line, he is the things you believe him to be. Online, well, we have our differences and I am ok with that. I am not sure why he is being so confrontational, but I have my suspicions.

As I consider it rude to ignore any post addressed to me by a brother or sister TNet member, I am not sure that I can simply ignore the man. However, I think that the "guys" (to quote Frank) have me on ignore, which, honestly, is like Kwanzaa in June for me.

 

[Hal Croves]

Howdy Ryan,

I don't understand what you mean when you say it's crucially important to find both sides. Only the truth matters, nothing else does.

When I post to point out some things, I do it for those who follow these threads in search for answers to form their own opinions. I as many enjoy watching your videos.

I have never had the pleasure of meeting, or debating with Garry Cundiff. I have great respect for his work, and his interest for finding the truth. I am sure he is an intelligent man, but his efforts in proving that Travis made the PSM's fell short from phenomenal.

By comparing the letters of the PSM's with the Boat/Treasure Chest stone that Travis made, Garry believed it showed Travis to be the creator of the PSM's. The only thing the letters show is that Travis copied the lettering from the PSM's to make his Boat/Treasure Chest Stone.

The wording comparison proves that Travis was incapable of creating the PSM's. You can forget about misspelled words, Travis used an English word on his stone, and got the gender wrong on the Spanish. The gender on the PSM's is correct. This is not an assumption, this is a clear fact that reveals the truth.

Homar

Coazon de oro,
"Only the truth matters, nothing else does"

Yep.

 

[Cubfan64]

What I'd like to know is if Travis's manuscript will ever come out, and if so what (if anything) it might shed on the story... of course at this point, even if his manuscript were to be made public, those who's opinions agreed with the content would say "see, I told you so," while those who's opinions disagree would say "there's no proof Travis ever wrote that manuscript - it proves nothing," so I suppose in the end it doesn't matter.

Personally, I don't think Travis and his uncle would have spent any time searching in the Superstitions area with no reason. I think wherever Travis got those Stone Maps from, he believed they had something to do with the Superstition Mountains. I don't think Travis created them (well, not all of them at least), unless he created them from a "master" that he got from somewhere else. I think there's a good chance given Travis's interest in stone carving that he may have created one of them, but I do believe he added things to them in the event they were ever stolen or seen by other people - only he would know what he added. I also think that eventually because he didn't find anything using them, he may very well have tried to sell them.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal:

This is the article written by Greg Davis about Richard Peck.
Could you explain how you came to the conclusion Peck is a "perfect example" of Dave's assertion ?

Thanks:SH.

from Gary's site.....http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb...an/peralta/peck/Biography of Richard Peck.pdf

Another credit to Mr. Davis. If there is anyone that I am jealous of, well here we have it. Someone worthy of my jealousy.

Let me see what I can contribute.

"Rick died at his home in Gold Canyon, Ariz., on Feb. 6, 2000. He was 78.

He came to Princeton from Walnut Hills H.S., in Cincinnati, and Santa Monica Junior College. While on campus Rick majored in modern languages, belonged to Charter Club, and was active in boxing and 150-pound crew. His roommates included Earl Biscoe and Hase Griffin.

Following accelerated graduation Rick flew as an observation pilot with the Army Field Artillery Service with the rank of first lt.

After WWII ended Rick managed his family's citrus farm in Texas. Later, he worked in advertising with P&G as their manager of print media, before leaving to become pres. of Peck-Heeking Advertising.

Rick moved to Arizona in 1965, settling in Phoenix, where he resided for 23 years, later retiring to Fountain Hills and Gold Canyon. Most of his spare time was devoted to his hobby of searching for legendary lost mines; he was considered a leading authority on the Lost Dutchman Mine.

Survivors include his wife, Joan, sons Richard Jr. and Harlin, a daughter, Georgia, and two grandchildren. To the entire family we send our deepest sympathies."

The Class of 1943

more coming....
I am moving a little slow today.

 

[RG1976]

Howdy Ryan,

I don't understand what you mean when you say it's crucially important to find both sides. Only the truth matters, nothing else does.

When I post to point out some things, I do it for those who follow these threads in search for answers to form their own opinions. I as many enjoy watching your videos.

I have never had the pleasure of meeting, or debating with Garry Cundiff. I have great respect for his work, and his interest for finding the truth. I am sure he is an intelligent man, but his efforts in proving that Travis made the PSM's fell short from phenomenal.

By comparing the letters of the PSM's with the Boat/Treasure Chest stone that Travis made, Garry believed it showed Travis to be the creator of the PSM's. The only thing the letters show is that Travis copied the lettering from the PSM's to make his Boat/Treasure Chest Stone.

The wording comparison proves that Travis was incapable of creating the PSM's. You can forget about misspelled words, Travis used an English word on his stone, and got the gender wrong on the Spanish. The gender on the PSM's is correct. This is not an assumption, this is a clear fact that reveals the truth.

Homar

Good Morning Homar,

Walt Whitman said " Whatever satisfies the soul, is truth" - and I have often found this to be the case when it comes to stories where truth is not always transparent - such as anything related to Jacob Waltz, The Dutchman Mine & The Stone Maps.

As I've mentioned here, countless times, I am not a treasure hunter. I am a "legend hunter" and as part of my videos, its important to understand both sides of the story so that I am able to, with a lot of patience, present both sides. I believe that anyone that attaches themselves to "one side of the story" without knowing the other, is doing themselves a disservice.

Garry Cundiff, in my opinion, is a pretty stellar guy. He has put "boots on the ground", he has contacted those involved with the legend, and has spent quite a bit of money, time and effort doing so. He earned the trust of the family - and over a handful of years - was able to get quite a bit of information. Anyone who does that - is a phenomenal person and researcher.

In contrast:

Ive been contacted by a large handful of folks that live in other states, that for whatever reason - be it monetary, health, or just a lack of time - have never stepped foot into the mountains....but have unequivocally solved the stone maps via Google Earth. While I respect these folks convictions, it reminds me a lot of a girl that I know - that met her "soul mate" on Match.com She exchanged emails with him - professed her love for him - and let all of us know how amazing he is.

Last month, she bought a plane ticket to go visit him. When she arrived, he was someone completely different. She was devastated and heart broken.

I would imagine these two scenarios are pretty identical - and brings me back to the quote from Whitman - "whatever satisfies the soul, is truth"

 

[UncleMatt]

translation: he wasn't as young or as attractive as he appeared in his photos

 

[releventchair]

Ryan & Frank wow great vid, looking forward to more

those Tumlinson carvings on the stone and his house, these old eyes
had a hard time seeing them well, so i lightened them some
i have some info links for the old rt 60, on the other puter, ill post tomorrow

from your vid of Garry C. imgs, original, lighter, lighter

house wall
View attachment 1167604 View attachment 1167605 View attachment 1167606

rock with chest
View attachment 1167607 View attachment 1167608 View attachment 1167609

Here is someone with an interest in the stone maps work, in getting a feel and experience at least for carving/engraving.
Not only in tools but the material worked.
Earliest attempts may have been scrapped or fractured so keeping an eye out still worth it.
The chest itself fits proportion means much better than the writing on chest stone; making quite a contrast.
The scribed line, deep for what ever reason, on the head block of chimney allows more precise level of lettering.
Interesting pics for sure.

 

[deducer]

What I'd like to know is if Travis's manuscript will ever come out, and if so what (if anything) it might shed on the story... of course at this point, even if his manuscript were to be made public, those who's opinions agreed with the content would say "see, I told you so," while those who's opinions disagree would say "there's no proof Travis ever wrote that manuscript - it proves nothing," so I suppose in the end it doesn't matter.

Personally, if it hasn't happened, I don't see it ever happening. Janie Tumlinson and/or her siblings, immediate family, have had their share of harassment from nutjobs and crackpots over the year, trying to find out everything about her father, or grandfather. I imagine the publication of said manuscript would just make this worse, and put them or her under the magnifying glass again.

Additionally, if, in the manuscript, Travis confessed to altering, defacing or even carving any of the stones, or making any aspect of the tale up, this would give the Tumlinson family another black eye.

"Peg Leg" Tumlinson allegedly had a reputation far preceding him, and I'm sure the Tumlinsons have labored to distance themselves from that, and would greatly prefer to let sleeping dogs lie.

 

[Cubfan64]

Personally, if it hasn't happened, I don't see it ever happening. Janice Tumlinson and/or her siblings, immediate family, have had their share of harassment from nutjobs and crackpots over the year, trying to find out everything about her father, or grandfather. I imagine the publication of said manuscript would just make this worse, and put them or her under the magnifying glass again.

Additionally, if, in the manuscript, Travis confessed to altering, defacing or even carving any of the stones, or making any aspect of the tale up, this would give the Tumlinson family another black eye.

"Peg Leg" Tumlinson allegedly had a reputation far preceding him, and I'm sure the Tumlinsons have labored to distance themselves from that, and would greatly prefer to let sleeping dogs lie.

I strongly suspect you're right on target. Putting myself in their place, that's how I would feel as well. The only caveat to this is - what if someone outside of the direct Tumlinson family has access to a copy of that manuscript and could be convinced to part with it? If that were to ever happen however, I go back to what I said earlier about nothing but controversy coming from something like that - there would always be that doubt that it was authentic or hadn't been tampered with.

Still it would be interesting to see - not gonna hold my breath though

 

[releventchair]

We don't know the ratio of cairns to carvings before some were altered or flat out destroyed, but if a mining force of Spaniards did not have a member who scribed,a common miner with potential of carpal tunnel from over use of grip might be more likely to dodge complicated maps cut into stone. It stands to reason messy lettering from loss of dexterity hands would follow but inexperience would give similar results.
Time would be reduced by experience but still required with the additional labor also..
At a mine, with a designated worker perhaps the time and energy could be afforded for such work but on the trail, outside of a campsite; a delay seems unlikely.
The labor required for cairns was used, the old cattle trails are an example. An experienced mason could knock out a simple work faster yet stacking rock appears more common despite the labor. Visibility at a distance counts on nondescript sections but topography funnels traffic close to features just as easily marked.
Portability a consideration but why stone for a map then? And who is recorded as skilled and employed at such work?

 

[DiggerGal]

Walt Whitman said " Whatever satisfies the soul, is truth" - and I have often found this to be the case when it comes to stories where truth is not always transparent - such as anything related to Jacob Waltz, The Dutchman Mine & The Stone Maps.

Ryan,
Bravo!!!! So true and fitting to this subject!

 

[Hal Croves]

Personally, if it hasn't happened, I don't see it ever happening. Janice Tumlinson and/or her siblings, immediate family, have had their share of harassment from nutjobs and crackpots over the year, trying to find out everything about her father, or grandfather. I imagine the publication of said manuscript would just make this worse, and put them or her under the magnifying glass again.

Additionally, if, in the manuscript, Travis confessed to altering, defacing or even carving any of the stones, or making any aspect of the tale up, this would give the Tumlinson family another black eye.

"Peg Leg" Tumlinson allegedly had a reputation far preceding him, and I'm sure the Tumlinsons have labored to distance themselves from that, and would greatly prefer to let sleeping dogs lie.

They weren't all nut jobs and crackpots.
But, you are correct and your insight into human behavior is commendable.
I still think that it could be tickled out of the family for a look-see.

A gentle touch might be all that is needed.

View attachment 1167671

 

[Garry]

I strongly suspect you're right on target. Putting myself in their place, that's how I would feel as well. The only caveat to this is - what if someone outside of the direct Tumlinson family has access to a copy of that manuscript and could be convinced to part with it? If that were to ever happen however, I go back to what I said earlier about nothing but controversy coming from something like that - there would always be that doubt that it was authentic or hadn't been tampered with.

Still it would be interesting to see - not gonna hold my breath though

Deducer and Paul,

As far as families sharing information on rogue ancestors, we have done a lot of genealogy and the families usually take delight in sharing that kind of information. A black sheep spices up your history!

They frequently have absolutely no interest in the treasure angle and they probably wouldn't would give you the time of day if approached, looking only for treasure.

An example; Janie and some of Travis' relations in Texas volunteered several personal stories. Travis served two terms in the Texas Penitentiary as a young man, he escaped from prison on one occasion and turned himself in a year or so later, he was an acquaintance of Clyde Barrow, he was a tough, etc.

Now if I had a real "treasure hunter" in my ancestry, I might be ashamed of them and try to hide it but a crook would be just fine.

The thing that would bother them is those hunters, whose theory doesn't match the history, implying that members of the family that have offered information in good faith are mistaken or lying to hide something!

Garry

 

[Hal Croves]

Deducer and Paul,

As far as families sharing information on rogue ancestors, we have done a lot of genealogy and the families usually take delight in sharing that kind of information. A black sheep spices up your history!

They frequently have absolutely no interest in the treasure angle and they probably wouldn't would give you the time of day if approached, looking only for treasure.

An example; Janie and some of Travis' relations in Texas volunteered several personal stories. Travis served two terms in the Texas Penitentiary as a young man, he escaped from prison on one occasion and turned himself in a year or so later, he was an acquaintance of Clyde Barrow, he was a tough, etc.

Now if I had a real "treasure hunter" in my ancestry, I might be ashamed of them and try to hide it but a crook would be just fine.

The thing that would bother them is those hunters, whose theory doesn't match the history, implying that members of the family that have offered information in good faith are mistaken or lying to hide something!

Garry

Of course a discovery using the stones may just change all that. Vindicating Travis, confirming his efforts and validating years of searching. An important discovery, I believe, might just be welcomed. That's a tall order but if you are one of those who believe that the stones are more than odd curiosities, it's not impossible.

Great part of that story Gary!

 

[cw0909]

if you search the term:
jacobs file name 013615/12510/Final US 60 DCR.doc
you can find all the pgs of said report
ive listed each doc, i hope im in the right area
of the stone maps find.all have good history, but
#s 1,2,3,4 & i think 5 have good history b4 and
shortly after Travis Tumlinson said he found the
stones
im going to read through it all again, when i get
some more time, im sure i missed stuff on the quick
read, oh there is a construction time table in the
docs i think 1.0
--------
US 60: Florence Junction to Superior
Final Design Concept Report

intro
http://azdot.gov/docs/default-sourc...ior-executive-summary---may-2004.pdf?sfvrsn=4
1.0
http://azdot.gov/docs/default-sourc...rior-fdcr-chapter-i-introduction.pdf?sfvrsn=4
2.0
http://azdot.gov/docs/projects/chapter-2-traffic-and-accident-data.pdf?sfvrsn=0
3.0
http://azdot.gov/docs/projects/chapter-3-aashto-controlling-design-criteria.pdf?sfvrsn=0
4.0
http://azdot.gov/docs/projects/location-analysis.pdf?sfvrsn=0
5.0
http://azdot.gov/docs/projects/chapter-5-design-concept-alternatives
6.0
http://azdot.gov/docs/projects/chapter-6-major-design-features.pdf?sfvrsn=0
7.0
http://azdot.gov/docs/projects/chapter-7-itemized-cost-estimates
8.0
http://azdot.gov/docs/projects/chapter-8-implementation-plan.pdf?sfvrsn=0

 

[cw0909]

search term was, queen creek az old route 60
old and new imgs from blogs, from looking and
reading,was T.T. ever on any of the old rt 60
thats above the new rt 60
-----------------------
old maps
https://www.arizonaroads.com/maps/index.html

Bridgehunter.com
queen creek old and new
Bridgehunter.com | Pinal County, Arizona

The current alignment (shown above in green) was built in 1952. Due to the more advanced techniques available at the time, it followed a different alignment, and did not require switchbacks. It still required a bridge (this newer bridge is made of steel, as compared to the old concrete bridge), and a tunnel (the Queen Creek Tunnel, shown as a green dotted line).

more @
Portrait of a Highway: US 60 / Queen Creek Canyon, AZ

bike blog
Gold Canyon to Globe
https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=tS&page_id=180462&v=EW

mid pg for az
https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=tS&doc_id=7988&v=cw#174301

blog
Abandoned U.S. 60
Arizona @ AARoads - Abandoned U.S. 60

 

[Tnmountains]

It is quite obvious how a great thread turns to s**t over and over again. It's best guys that we all totally Ignore those responsible. I know I will.

And Frank, obviously you can see why Mods would just rather shut down such a thread instead of baby sitting such petty nonsense. If we keep getting reports on these I would just rather close them off then have to come back and look at all of this again.