WARNING!! Florida law changes

wreckdiver1715

wreckdiver1715

Bronze Member
May 20, 2004
1,721
152
Satellite Beach
Detector(s) used
Minelab Excal 1000
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Now that the 2005 summer dive season is in full swing down along the Florida coast (well, when the rain finally ends anyway). The comments of another Florida scuba diver on this site caused me to revisit the Florida Historical Commission, the Bureau of Archaeological Research, and the Division of Historical Resources web site. Wow! I am shocked at some of the changes that are posted since my last visit to the site. This does not appear to be good news for all us scuba diving relic/treasure hunters.
Effective 1 June 2005, the division has discontinued the isolated finds program. Removal of artifacts from sovereign submerged lands will no longer be allowed after that date; removal of artifacts from river bottoms and other sovereign submerged lands will be a first degree misdemeanor under ? 267.13(1)(a), Florida Statutes.I am not entirely sure of the implications that we are now faced with. However, I will be doing more research and contacting Dr. Wheeler, the State Archaeologist and Chief of the Bureau of Archaeological Research next week for more details, and will post them as soon as I get a response from his office.

Stay tuned for more information

Q
 

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I will be interested to find out why Florida has changed its rules. Ever since the SeaHunt/Juno/LaGalga case in 2000 where the Federal Court ruled that Virginia did not have any rights to Spanish ships in her waters, because of the 1902 Treaaty between Spain and the US, I have been waiting to see if any other States, particularly Florida changed their stance. As a lot, if not most, of the wrecks along the Florida coast were owned by the Spanish government at the time of their sinking (e.g. the 1715 fleet) then Florida has no rights to these wrecks and therefore cannot give anybody permission to recover or keep anything that comes off them.

Furthermore, I do not think that any licenses Florida has issued in the past to the likes of the Mel Fisher group now cover Spanish ships in their areas. I suspect that Spain is not about to fly into court to re-assert these rights, but I suspect there might well have been dealings going on in the background. If there have been, of course, we are entitled to the information through the freedom of information act and the equivalent state legislation.

That's my interpretation, anyway.

Mariner
 

maybe its time to get a rebreather.i dont vote for idiots that make stoopid laws.
 

Hey wait a minute,
why is it still legal to excavate Spanish shipwrecks in Cuba, the Phillippines, Equador, Cape Verde, etc. Why doesn't the Spanish govt. object to salvage activity there?
 

Quite right, Cornelius,

Of course, Spain's willingness to cut a deal has not yet been tested, as far as I can tell, since they intervened and established their rights in the SeaHunt Juno/LaGalga case. However, I believe that they would make a deal, provided proper archaeological methods were employed in any recovery. This would be a good thing anyway, and the cost would be well outweighed by the benefits in most cases.

Certainly Florida and the Abandoned Shipwrecks Act are now irrelevant when it comes to Spanish wrecks, as far as US law is concerned, though the State probably still have some rights when it comes to dictating the way recovery operations are carried out, as this will involve disturbance of seabed material that belongs to the State.

Incidentally, I am sure that Spain would prefer to exert her rights in places like Cuba, but do you think that Cuba cares about Spain's opinion or position? Besides, who did the treasure belong to in the first place?

Mariner
 

any spainish or british or french wrecks i find in the future are just gonna be called pirate wrecks,they belong to no country.
the treasure on spainish wrecks never belong to them,they stole it from the mayans an aztecs,so whoever finds it,it belongs to them.
as far as anything found in the water,you could always say you found it on the beach or land.
 

While I agree completely with everyone?s comments about the US giving up sovereignty of foreign shipwrecks in US waters and the UNESCO treaty throughout the world in general. I believe that the UNESCO issue has more to do with why Pirate Chris has gone underground than why the state of Florida is ending the isolated finds program.
The repeal of the isolated finds program has more to do with the academic community trying desperately to further isolate private shipwreck salvage (they are afraid because we have so much more success than they do), and the states total lack of ability to manage isolated finds program.
See the minutes of the June 28, 2004 underwater finds meeting for a much clearer picture of the messed up thinking at DHR, and be sure to read between the lines on this one. http://dhr.dos.state.fl.us/archaeology/underwater/finds/meetings/062804_Minutes.pdf

Q
 

What happened to the treasure hunting community on this? Were there no public hearings? Why don't the big companys like Salvors Inc. have a lobbyist and what influence does Pro-Sea and ShipRx have on this legislation?
 

I for one am somewhat disappointed in the state of Floridas approach to the recent discovery of an apparent ships keel on the beach here (posted separately). They essentially said they weren't interested at all, haul it to the dump, yet it appears they have gone overboard on their zealous desire to protect occasional underwater finds. Way too inconsistent. And screw spain and her "claim" to wrecks...it's kinda late for that. Archaeologists want to preserve everything..well, sorry, in the real world that just won't happen. I've been involved with historic preservation for 30 years. Personally prepared and had a listed on the National Register a property i restored. Yes, you try to preserve what you can, but when you're dealing with someones property, you really can't (and shouldn't) dictate what they do with it. Riparian rights in Florida state that the submerged lands are owned by the state for the use and enjoyment of ALL people. So now what is owned by all the people for use by all the people is controlled by a small special interest group? Baloney.
 

Man,that was longwinded.Sounds like they are a bunch of greedy arche's and co. that want EVERYTHING that EVERYONE finds EVERYWHERE.They have so many artifacts already sitting around in storage and now they want to keep everyone from collecting an artifact or two,seems ridiculous.I can understand if a major site were discovered,them wanting to know about it,but each and every isolated find? Now, even that is illegal,what a cruel joke.Just how many artifacts do these people need to study to get a familiar grasp on the ancient civilizations that existed here in Florida.As I stated earlier,they have enough artifacts to study already that will last them a lifetime.PIGS-GREEDY PIGS-YOU CAN'T HAVE NONE OF MY DIGS! I wonder how much money is coming from big corps. with hidden agendas?
 

politicians are greedy bastards no matter how u go about it, all i can is that these are the kinds of things they do which just widens the rift between treasure hunters the authority's and it is a shame that they have pushed us to the point of where we are forced to involve ourselves in "illegal" activity's just for the sake of removing a few objects that would have been left to rot on the ocean floor if we hadn't come along and found them, because there are actually some people who believe in finding and preserving historical artifacts. when it comes to ownership claims who's to say who truly has ownership. should it be finders keeps in which case it belongs to the treasure hunters? should it be on whose land it is found on, which would make the state of Florida's? or does it belong to the Spanish government because it was on board their ships when it hit the ocean floor? or does it belong to the descendent's of the ancient civilizations from whom the Spanish stole it from? or does it belong to the modern day country's in which those ancient civilizations were located? there are so many claims for ownership possible that it just makes the entire process pointless. If only we could establish a system similar to the UK's
 

bill,
it seems as though any wreck found in florida thats on land,the beach or dunes,the state has no interest in conserving it if it has no treasure or artifacts on it,as in the case of the 3rd ave wreck in new smyrna beach,i have a update on it,this upcomming week,a chan 6 reporter will be interviewing me,i guess on camera,so im gonna reem the state an the city of new smyrna beach about it.on why wasnt it protected,maybe you should contact your newspapers an news teams down there about the timbers in the dunes too.the public needs to know how wrecks with history that have no treasure get neglected or destroyed.

http://65.33.85.140:81/3rdaveshipwreck/wreck.html
 

Give 'em hell Fisheye! Just remember, when I spoke with New Smyrna Beach city officials, they claimed that Volusia County controls the beaches, not them. We don't want to ream the wrong people but we also don't want to leave anybody out! Let us know when/if the story airs.
 

FISHEYE said:
bill,
it seems as though any wreck found in florida thats on land,the beach or dunes,the state has no interest in conserving it if it has no treasure or artifacts on it,as in the case of the 3rd ave wreck in new smyrna beach,i have a update on it,this upcomming week,a chan 6 reporter will be interviewing me,i guess on camera,so im gonna reem the state an the city of new smyrna beach about it.on why wasnt it protected,maybe you should contact your newspapers an news teams down there about the timbers in the dunes too.the public needs to know how wrecks with history that have no treasure get neglected or destroyed.

http://65.33.85.140:81/3rdaveshipwreck/wreck.html
Click to expand...
Hey FISHEYE,that link won't go through,what is it? A PICTURE OF THE TIMBERS IN THE DUNES?Are you gonna be on channel 6 news or anything?I'd like to check that out.Did you read in the minutes how they wanted to get a list of everyones finds that they are already in possesion of?Why is that?In case someone has something of real value(monetary not historical) they can claim it?Freedom aint what it used to be,and the gov. reminds me of a certain monarchy that wants a bigger piece of our pie every time we turn around!
 

try this link
http://65.33.84.138:81/3rdaveshipwreck/wreck.html
the power went out here in lake mary yesterday due to some construction workers digging up our power ans cable line,my IP# changed for my web server.
hopefully later this week i will be meeting with the TV reporter for the volusia chan 6 news.apparently they are low tech there so i have to print out the pics on my web site for them.
 

Thanks FISHEYE,much better.Just another prime example showing that they're not really interested in the "historical value" of a site.they're just interested in the "value" period. >:( - diggummup
 

who cares, its only a misdemener, ill take my chances... ;)
 

FISHEYE said:
try this link
http://65.33.84.138:81/3rdaveshipwreck/wreck.html
the power went out here in lake mary yesterday due to some construction workers digging up our power ans cable line,my IP# changed for my web server.
Click to expand...

FishEye:

If you like to host content on your PC... You should consider getting a dynamic DNS Alias.. It's simple and free. You sign-up, pick out a "name" with one of the domain names.. Ie.. FishEye.dnsalias.com. NExt you run a small piece of software on your PC that updates your IP address to your "domain name".

So if your IP changes, it is updated automatically. You simply point everyone to your domain name: ie.. http://FishEye.dnsalias.com/3rdaveshipwreck/wreck.html

Cheers.

http://www.dyndns.com/services/dns/dyndns/

TS
 

Cornelius,

I entirely agree with you.

I have very recently asked the Florida Office of Cultural and Historical Programs to confirm whether the State has changed its assertion of title to Spanish shipwrecks in its waters, and will post their response if and when I receive it.

There is no indication that I can find that Florida has actually changed any of its rules. Of course, rules that refer to "abandoned" wrecks will not need to be changed, even though the number of "unabandoned" wrecks has increased dramatically. Since the Federal Court of Appeal ruling in the 2000 SeaHunt case involving Virginia and the Spanish ships Juno and LaGalga, Spanish ships in US waters are not "abandoned" unless their owners specifically declare them to be so.

Last November's new Federal Law on Government-owned ships merely formalized this earlier Court finding, for some Spanish wrecks.

I suspect that Spain will not try to turn back the clock on recovery permits that have already been issued by Florida, but I do not think we will see the State issuing any more without the specific agreement of Spain. I guess we will find out as and when somebody finds one of the remaining wrecks from the 1715 or 1733 treasure fleets. I suspect also that Florida will still insist on the need to issue permits because the sea bed immediately around its coast belongs to the State, and you can't excavate a wreck without disturbing the sea bed.

Mariner
 

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