Wax Seal Matrix from the French Site

[PBR]

Went back to our site today and did a little work for the landowners. We were able to hunt for a couple hours and i got skunked. My buddy dug what i think is a Wax Seal Matrix with a crown and some possible letters/initials inside of it. Was wondering if this could possibly be French and if so what the letters might be. . Please take a look. Any suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks UPDATE: I got him to send me a couple more pics of the matrix the way he dug it. It has a silver wire attached with a square shaped silver cufflink or button on the end. The button is plain with no design.

 

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[CRUSADER]

The site was an early 1700s French military encampment/settlement. We have found many French Relics and some Spanish cobs which i think were used by the French. Other than that everything else was US 1860's and upwards. Due to the amount of French items we have dug, i have to assume that this was probably French. I could be wrong, but just wanted to explain how i came to that assumption. I have disclosed much information to IP about our site, and he has been invaluable helping me ID many of the finds.

A hallmark would have put this to bed. But I'm sticking with English made, & if that meant some made it to France to be incised, or maybe its a style they copied.

 

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[PBR]

Crusader isn't doubting the age, he's suggesting it could be an English made seal that turned up, much the same way as the French used the cobs. The debate, or question right now is... is there anything specific about that seal that can show to a high degree of probability it is French. I think the style does, bit am not 100% sure without a lot of looking around.... but as I said it's in my head as French, and finding it where you did it totally fits. Also, it's very uncommon to find early British relics at the French sites where I've hunted, however, I have turned up three English Stuart Crystal buttons from early cufflinks, at mixed sites, and I have always questioned if they were lost by the French as it fits the time frame much better. To me it's a French seal regardless... someone may be able to show it's possible it could be English made... but unless they can prove it by the matrix, to me it's French.

I am not saying Crusader is wrong, but was just confirming that you had some knowledge of the site, which could have helped you come to your conclusion. Both of you guys have way more knowledge about European Relics than i will ever have. I do believe the French were at war with the British in the early 1700s, so it could be possible that a British relic could have turned up at this site. From a possible prisoner, or some sort of trophy or spoil of war. If it were British it would be the first item to be Id'd as such from this site. Im leaning towards french, but im trying to stay objective. I would love to know for certain, and all comments are appreciated. I do not intend for this thread to become an argument by no means, but hoped it would be more of an educational experience for everyone. Thanks to all who respond.

 

[gwdigger]

That thing is freaking awesome. Best thing I ever saw you dig. I'd be doing back flips if I found one, especially that nice.

 

[CRUSADER]

I am not saying Crusader is wrong, but was just confirming that you had some knowledge of the site, which could have helped you come to your conclusion. Both of you guys have way more knowledge about European Relics than i will ever have. I do believe the French were at war with the British in the early 1700s, so it could be possible that a British relic could have turned up at this site. From a possible prisoner, or some sort of trophy or spoil of war. If it were British it would be the first item to be Id'd as such from this site. Im leaning towards french, but im trying to stay objective. I would love to know for certain, and all comments are appreciated. I do not intend for this thread to become an argument by no means, but hoped it would be more of an educational experience for everyone. Thanks to all who respond.

If you thinking its early 1700s, that's a big no, no. This style is a late 18th C style, so maybe 1750s at a push.

 

[PBR]

That thing is freaking awesome. Best thing I ever saw you dig. I'd be doing back flips if I found one, especially that nice.

Thanks GW, but unfortunately i didnt dig it. My buddy dug it while we were hunting together. I just posted the pics in order to help get some info on it. I wish i had dug it. Im a bit jealous at the moment, but still happy for him.

 

[CRUSADER]

Thought I would check my knowledge with my book on seals. Pretty much as I thought:

 

[PBR]

If you thinking its early 1700s, that's a big no, no. This style is a late 18th C style, so maybe 1750s at a push.

If it is late to mid 18th C. It would be the first thing from 20 trips/hunts that can be positively Id'd as being such. Everything so far has been much older or much newer. Im not saying it isnt mid to late 18th C.., and i do appreciate your comments. Once again i will say you know way more about this stuff than i do.

 

[CRUSADER]

If it is late to mid 18th C. It would be the first thing from 20 trips/hunts that can be positively Id'd as being such. Everything so far has been much older or much newer. Im not saying it isnt mid to late 18th C.., and i do appreciate your comments. Once again i will say you know way more about this stuff than i do.

There is no doubt in my mind. It strengthens my case that someone visited the site post-French occupation, & its English. Facts speak for themselves. Don't be like other on here & think everything has to fit the site.
Also, remember, if occupation didn't happen again until the mid-19th C, this is a perfect time for someone to loss their Grandad's Seal (or distant family). Follow the clues...

 

[CRUSADER]

https://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/729356
My example was hallmarked & so is the above at 1799. Nearly all the hallmarked ones I've seen of this type have been 1780-1800.

 

[Rick (Nova Scotia)]

I'd also like to add that you can't really date a site by the coins dug, many circulated for 20- 30 even 50 years. Different story maybe, if you find a bunch (hoard) of mint condition coins.
It's not to hard to find a 30 year old coin in your pocket today, back then they didn't go to the store everyday either, less circulation, coins last even longer.

 

[Iron Patch]

A good one to add!

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/m...nly-wax-seals-anyone-else-have-some-post.html

 

[relicminer]

[emoji106]🏻

 

[murph73]

Hi,


first i must say what a nice piece of History your friend found there!
CRUSADER i totally agree with, that it is a English seal make. But like through out history Buttons , Buckels and Seals . Basicly everyday Items where traded, reproduced in different Country's. Prime example are buckles.

I found over 50 different Buckels in Germany that seem to have been copied from English buckles. Only reference i found where on a wonderful English web page. All fades seemed to have come from France or England. And rolled over rest of Europe at the time. I do have something to say about the material that is used. I don't know if its just the bad pic, i see a greenish tint. Which would let me assume its not Silver but rather Arsenical bronze. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenical_bronze . Here are two examples of mine made out of Arsenical bronze.


If there are no hallmarks then i believe it is not silver. England started hallmarking as early as 1180. 1379 the mark of origin was put to law. In 1784 the duty mark(tax) was put to law. So if it was silver it had to be marked.
France from 1681 until 1791 they had four hallmarks which consisted of Makers Mark, Tax, Inspector, Silver content. 1791 a new Hallmark system was introduced. This being said after hundreds of years the hallmarks could be worn down or the matrix was made in the colonial US without hallmarks to avoid paying taxes to the British empire. So to be sure it needs to be tested.

Best regards

Sean

 

[Iron Patch]

So a question to those who think English... so you're saying the French did not make seals like this?

And if they did, which I assume they did, I don't see the logic in believing it's English and not French when it was found at a French period site will all French relics. The is not Europe with hundreds of years of history often even being in the same field.... this is the deep South, and when the French were there, there really was not anyone one else. I still think there's a MUCH stronger case for French and I am also someone who has been hunting the same era of French sites since 2004.... so I know a little bit about how they are. The only difference in mine besides location, is they tend to date 1720s to 1750s, where PBR's clearly go back a little earlier do to the slab shank Marines buttons he has been finding. Last month I was able to confirm a few dug in Nova Scotia. and that does make sense because their sites can date a little earlier than mine. Anyway, it's good to see a FRENCH relic get this much attention.

 

[Silver Searcher]

I don't have a problem of it being French or English, but as the context of finds points to French...
I to would agree this seal is indeed Silver and just needs a gentle clean. Will look good up top then.

SS

 

[Blueblood]

Very very neat!

 

[Iron Patch]

I don't have a problem of it being French or English, but as the context of finds points to French...
I to would agree this seal is indeed Silver and just needs a gentle clean. Will look good up top then.

SS

I'd say you're probbaly right... I bet it is silver.

 

[CRUSADER]

So a question to those who think English... so you're saying the French did not make seals like this?

And if they did, which I assume they did, I don't see the logic in believing it's English and not French when it was found at a French period site will all French relics. The is not Europe with hundreds of years of history often even being in the same field.... this is the deep South, and when the French were there, there really was not anyone one else. I still think there's a MUCH stronger case for French and I am also someone who has been hunting the same era of French sites since 2004.... so I know a little bit about how they are. The only difference in mine besides location, is they tend to date 1720s to 1750s, where PBR's clearly go back a little earlier do to the slab shank Marines buttons he has been finding. Last month I was able to confirm a few dug in Nova Scotia. and that does make sense because their sites can date a little earlier than mine. Anyway, it's good to see a FRENCH relic get this much attention.

Some how, you have to explain how a Seal that has a date range of 1750-1825 fits a French Site that ended in 1721?

 

[Carolina Tom]

Very nice find! Tell your buddy that I said "WOW"... he will know what I mean.

 

[murph73]

Ok ,

i did some digging and i believe the matrix on the plate is french. On the list shown for crowns i believe second row all the way to the right. . So it would be a governor of a french province. I worked with the pic at hand and i believe to see lilies on the crown. And to where the seal its self was made well that im afraid will still be a unknown. Heres a link to one that i believe was found in germany since its in a german data base.silbernes Petschaft, Neuzeit | Petschaften-Archiv And its the same form material is silver and dates to around 1750. This seals where made as raw seals and then ingraved for who every bought it. Thousends could have been made from this seal type. As for the material @ Silver Surfer i disagree on the silver part until otherwise proven. If there are no Hallmarks and the greenish tint to it im still sticking with Arsenic bronce. If u compare it with the one in the link this one that was foundseems crued worked and seems to have patina on it as Arsenic bronce would have. But by all means always up for a good discussion.
This is not about whos right or wrong its about finding the backround of a awesome artifact. And a open discussion can be very productive.

Best regards

Sean