We're Devils Just ask them.

[uniface]

Posted without comment

The term looter is defined as any person who commits the act of looting for artifacts in a fieldwork context. Once again, by definition, a looter is any artifact hunter who is not a qualified professional archaeologist—or is an ordinary person operating without training in field archaeology or operating outside of supervision by a professional archaeologist.

I know the key question that is uppermost on your mind after reading those two definitions, so here it is:


Do you mean to tell me that if I am a citizen of Tennessee, I call up my friend Ned Brooks, he gives me written permission to surface hunt or dig for artifacts at an archaeological site on his land—with me in 100 percent compliance with Tennessee cultural resources law and human burial laws—and I go surface hunting or digging at Ned’s place—you professional archaeologists officially define me as a looter?


Yes. You betcha!!! That is absolutely correct!!! I have been involved in American archaeology (on and off—one way or another) for the past 48 years. That was the everyday convention among professional archaeologists, archaeology graduate students, and archaeology undergraduate students throughout my eight years in the Department of Anthropology at The University of Tennessee, Knoxville (UTK). That is how the terms looting and looter were used—every day—in our formal academic discussions. They were used that way in casual archaeological discussions over a beer at a local bar on Friday nights. They were used that way over a brown bag lunch, and they were used that way in the Chevy Suburban on the long drive home from a day of archaeological fieldwork. I have never heard the terms looting or looter used any other way or by any other definition—-whatsoever—by any other archaeologist in the United States across my 48 years of experience.


I have seen a few of the discussions about this subject among artifact collectors at various on-line collector venues. I have read the comments where collectors swear up one side and down the other that they cannot possibly be defined as a looter because they never illegally hunt, dig, or swish around for artifacts on government land or under government waters. They can talk all they want to about it—talk themselves blue in the face if they like—twist it around however they like—but no matter how much they talk or twist—if they are legally surface hunting in a field or legally digging somewhere for artifacts to take home—without professional field training or supervision—the professional archaeology community in the United States officially defines them as looters.

https://contextintn.wordpress.com/2...llectors-pose-to-professional-archaeologists/

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Diving for Pleasure and Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[Aurora1959]

I've seen plenty of amateur collectors cited by and collaborated with the professionals here in my neck of the woods. The great William Ritchie (pro) worked closely with the great Harold Secor (amateur) here in NY State as recorded in his classic tome The Archeology of New York State. In fact, there are references to many an amateur collector in that book. Also, the most amazing collection I have ever seen in person - thousands of NY artifacts found and loved over 70+ years - has been visited by various academics who praised, appreciated, and even borrowed some to further their research. Specifically, when the technology was developed to analyze food residue in pottery sherds, the pros came a-calling because this particular collector had never washed his pottery pieces. The current NYS Archeologist, Jonathan Lothrop, is very responsive to email questions and is currently involved with a paleo site on Oneida Lake that a couple amateurs found and turned him onto. On the other hand, I did show up at a field school a few years ago, before I was aware of the dark cloud of "looting", and detected a bit of an attitude of superiority from the professor. Whatever. Interestingly, the Native American ladies he had invited to participate in that dig were really really nice to me and were the first people to explain to me how to identify chert from other rocks: "Dirt doesn't stick to it and it has sharp edges". They had zero problem with my interest in the history of their people.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Agony and Death on a Gold Rush Steamer: The Disastrous Sinking of the Side-Wheeler Yankee Blade - Grab it through Amazon!

[Tnmountains]

Not True in Tennessee

John Broster who I had contact with about certain questionable point Identifications and I was able to contribute to his Paleo study with approximate locations.

John retired from the Tennessee Division of Archaeology in 2013, he completed a career in archaeology that spanned almost five decades, multiple countries, hundreds of sites, and literally thousands of Paleoindian points. His influence on Tennessee archaeology and Paleoindian studies cannot be overstated One of the lasting contributions from John’s prolific career is that he set the tone for how Paleoindian research should be conducted in Tennessee. First, John (and his colleagues at the TDOA) have worked extensively with the public to examine private collections. This work led to a revitalization of the Tennessee Fluted Point Survey (TFPS) in the late 1980s, and has since expanded to include nearly 5,500 artifacts. As a result of this public engagement and the lasting relationships built with private collectors across the stateI

t’s largely because of John’s efforts that we now know that Middle Tennessee has one of the richest Late Pleistocene and Early Holocene archaeological records in North America, both in terms of density and diversity. John influence on Paleoindian archaeology also extends beyond Tennessee. Researchers in other parts of North America frequently use the record from Tennessee as an important baseline for comparison.

Also the local archeologist has been helpful in some of my hunts and I have pointed him towards Mississippian excavations producing artifacts and written papers with students that he was able to complete that I was not allowed to.

https://tennesseearchaeologycouncil.wordpress.com/tag/john-broster/

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

So that makes them PROFESSIONAL LOOTERS then?
I can guess that kind of makes sense.

The idea that my skull might someday be sitting in a drawer along side a collection of bones is disturbing.
I wonder if there is an established age where human remains lose all dignity and become fair game to bone collectors?

What I see in Egypt almost seems like professional looting in the name of tourism.

 

[DizzyDigger]

Which sadly, is in no way limited to the field of archaeology.

Unfortunately, this is all too often true.

With the disease I have, there are times when a visit with a specialist
is pretty much required..they're known as a Neurotologist. There is one
of the top guys in the field located in Seattle..he really does know his stuff,
and he performed a surgery on me back in '09.

BUT..the dude is so conceited and arrogant that I just can't tolerate
being around the guy. He doesn't even think twice about insulting his
patients, and last time there I just got up and walked out of his office.
I looked at my wife and said.."What an a-hole!!!" just loud enough that
he could hear me.

Haven't been back since, and found another qualified guy in Bellingham.
It's still a 60 mile drive each way vs. 120 each way going to Seattle,
but I can go get a hearing test and evaluation without wanting to commit
a felony..

 

[uniface]

I sent a very old, raw Flintridge blade to an archaeologist I trusted, pointing out that it showed globules of carbonized organic matter on it -- exactly what Topping and Firestone listed in their ground-breaking paper as one of the thermonuclear event indications. When I received it back, they were gone. (I could see taking one or two for analysis, but taking all of them was over the line -- especially as he hadn't asked permission to remove even one of them). When I asked him to at least tell me what (if anything) they'd learned from that (14C date, at least), he swore he sent it back to me exactly as he'd received it. (Sure. Pee on my leg and tell me it's raining).

I can add that I'd sent him most of my collection (and given him several artifacts from it he particularly liked), asking only that he'd return them with analytical notes (his specialty is lithic analysis). The collection came back with exactly one note -- the one he missed (apparently someone had warned him that sharing information with looters would be the academic equivalent of a felony conviction).

This was in addition to promising me castings (then being made) of particular artifacts from the famous site he'd worked at as a thank-you-for-letting-me-study-those gesture. Which, of course, he never sent. When I questioned him on these he stopped responding to my emails.

I later found out he'd been banned from a cigar box pass for filching stuff out of it he'd not paid for.

Admittedly, back in Ritchie's day , pro/am relations were different. And the last of the old guard are still decent human beings. But that legacy of goodwill was all spent long ago.

 

[Tnmountains]

You know I do not care what they think about us to be honest. We share more information on here and have many members who are experts and share their vast knowledge and Bill you are one of those.
They can feel any way they like as long as we follow the rules. I know we have several members on here who are archeologist and remain to be silent about it because they also enjoy the many hobbies we all share. I respect that and their silence but I do appreciate their help.
So with that Happy Hunting!

 

[Aurora1959]

I don't remember where I read this story, so who knows if it's true, but it has the ring of validity. There is an island in Alaska inhabited by Native Americans who were digging up artifacts and selling them to collectors. I don't need to say that these folks were absolutely poverty stricken. When a professional archeologist gave them some **** about it - "How can you sell your heritage? How can you dishonor your ancestors?", they replied "Our ancestors put that stuff there for us to use to better our lives". Good comeback!

 

[uniface]

I often smile when I think of how similar the relationship of archaeologists to collectors (looters) who help them is to interactions with prostitutes.

Neither one will ever stop in private because they're "wrong," but both are considered shameful and secret in public.

 

[WG2020]

Uniface,

What always gets me is that anytime you see the inside of an archeologist’s home it is filled with recovered finds. My takeaway is that it is okay for them and not for anyone else - hypocrites. Good luck with your hunts. Walt

 

[sandchip]

...The idea that my skull might someday be sitting in a drawer along side a collection of bones is disturbing...

I could care less what happens to my remains when I'm gone, or what prideful academics think of me. Hang me from a lamp post and dance a jig for all I care. If I had my druthers, my carcass would be dragged out into the woods and left at the base of an old tree for the buzzards, yellow jackets and maggots to feast on. I'm far more concerned about standing before Him after I've left this wicked world.

 

[ArfieBoy]

I have to add my "two cents" here on this subject. I earned a B.S. in History. Then I went on to work on a second degree in Anthropology/Sociology with an emphasis in Archaeology. I stopped about 20 hours short of that degree because life got in the way and I never got back to it. I never had the attitude that us "amateur looters" were ever looters. In my opinion most of the current attitudinal Archaeologists are the true looters of our inclusive heritage. If it weren't for us "treasure hunters/looters" a large part of our past would never come to light or would be locked in the proverbial box stored in a basement, never to be studied or ever to see the light of day (might as well be buried in its original ground rather than suffer that fate). As a side note, the professor who ran a dig at a local site allowed me to use my metal detector on the site to pinpoint objects. We then did a professional archaeological excavation at the pinpointed site in the dig. He was very enthusiastic about using the detector in conjunction with the traditional archaeological methods. Great attitude, but alas, long retired now.

 

[Fat]

.....A couple of scientists were talking to God.
They said “ God, we’ve figured it all out, we know how you did it, we don’t need you anymore”
God said “well than, show me”
They said, “its very simple, you just take a few handfuls of dirt and than apply pressure and heat and than over time”,
God said “wait, wait,wait, use your own dirt.”...

 

[dts52]

I guess that makes me both DEPLORABLE and a LOOTER. Fortunately, I’m too old and too cranky to give a s#/t anymore.
dts

Oh, no! Now Biden says I’m also a CHUMP ? Good Lord, I just can’t keep up anymore!
dts

 

[Older The Better]

I have an archaeology degree, I can understand the loss of information at a site by people uninterested in a tedious excavation.

I love where I live, unfortunately nobody is gonna pay me to be an archaeologist around here. I guess that makes me a “looter” haha. when I hunt I try to take in as much info as I can for the sake of anyone in the future looking over my stuff but really it depends on my mood sometimes I just want to find a point and don’t want to scratch off a square of dirt a millimeter at a time.

I see a lost of mistrust of academics and for good reason my school ku has been known to steal things and I think I vaguely remember them trying to sue for mammoth remains someone found on a river.

When you guys mention collections locked in a box in a basement, the same could be said about private collections, there’s a lot of valuable information locked in peoples houses

I know it’s a pipe dream but if both groups could shed that animosity towards each other there is a lot that could be learned.

For now I guess I’m a “looter” and don’t have much problem with it. I’ll just keep my notes as best I can and see what the future brings. Maybe someday I can share what I got without fear of negative repercussions.

 

[Siwash]

I have more experience with fossils, and there's a nice relationships that's developed with fossil hunters and the Field Museum. From the museum's perspective, the finds are usually junk. . . but the finders mean more hands at work in the field. . . and some of the finds are of real scientific value.

"Looters" of course is a disparaging term. If I own the land, the stuff's mine. Buzz off. If the owner is willing to let me have lithics, same deal. Go pound your own sand.

My other interest is historical autographs, and once speaking with a major archivist, the topic of private collections of letters, etc., came up. HIS perspective is that private collectors of old books and papers OFTEN do better with them than educational institutions. . . the private collectors invest in preservation, where universities and colleges simply store stuff. My poor example, of a nice autographed envelope, suffices: I paid a conservator to clean dirt from the envelope. This isn't money that would have been spent by a school.

It's 2020, and much knowledge has been gained. How many school-collections of artifacts are boxed away and forgotten?

 

[uniface]

Carl Yahnig (Little River Clovis Complex discoverer/reporter) said the Kentucky Heritage Council had never returned at least one point I recall, despite 20 years of asking. Same deal with a famous Adena tablet in Ohio.

 

[Siwash]

Two notes:

(1) in my area, a large excavation of mounds took place in the late 40s and 50s, and along with the university crew was a local guy who was knowledgeable and handy; he was an author of the final study.

(2) Especially with cheaper books, more easily available scholarly materials, the internet's resources and fora, heck, just we people can be much more knowledgeable than previous generations. Scholarly articles are not locked away in tiny circulation journals kept in the university back basement. For collectors, this knowledge adds to the pursuit: that's exactly why we are "amateurs" in the highest sense of the term. Love the subject, you know.

 

[Jeff H]

I sent a very old, raw Flintridge blade to an archaeologist I trusted, pointing out that it showed globules of carbonized organic matter on it -- exactly what Topping and Firestone listed in their ground-breaking paper as one of the thermonuclear event indications.

Uniface, you got my attention. What is this "thermonuclear event" you are referring to?

 

[uniface]

THE MAMMOTH TRUMPET (March 2001)
TERRESTRIAL EVIDENCE OF A NUCLEAR CATASTROPHE INPALEOINDIAN TIMES

TERRESTRIAL EVIDENCE OF A NUCLEAR CATASTROPHE IN PALEOINDIAN TIMES

Knock yourself out

 

[Kray Gelder]

Oh, no! Now Biden says I’m also a CHUMP ? Good Lord, I just can’t keep up anymore!
dts

Relax. You have company.