What is this man trying to tell us?

[L.C. BAKER]

But we aren't dealing in facts here, are we? Merely supposition. If you were to ever bring your suppositions to some kind of conclusion to rebut, we might see some progress. Unfortunately your method only leads to more supposition. Leaps of faith. You assume when no one steps up with facts to the contrary, that you must be correct in your supposition. When someone does step up, you discard it as they just don't know what you do, they are just not "educated" the way you are. At the same time having confessed you are basically just guessing yourself and throwing it out there.

It's an endless circle of what ifs. Suppositions don't magically become Facts merely by remaining unopposed. It's up to You to provide the physical evidence that transforms your Suppositions into Facts. As of yet, they remain unproven.

The Hook is there, baited with a disclaimer. So far it hasn't caught anything. Throw some Facts on it and someone may bite.

No offense intended, just some constructive advice well meant.

No offense, but if I showed that to everyone I would be an idiot. As of yet, they remain unproven...to YOU



PS Suposition all based on result and facts is a theory in the making. Suposition based on fantacy is a waiste of time. I am holding a map in MY hand Sir.....think about that.

 

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[Ditlihi]

No offense, but if I showed that to everyone I would be an idiot. As of yet, they remain unproven...to YOU

......

PS Suposition all based on result and facts is a theory in the making. Suposition based on fantacy is a waiste of time. I am holding a map in MY hand Sir.....think about that.

A friendly suggestion? You may want to purchase a dictionary to go with those grammar lessons.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/supposition

And whatever it is you are holding in your hand...... Your Bluff has been called.


Non puoi insegnare niente a un uomo. Puoi solo aiutarlo a scoprire ciò che ha dentro di sé.

 

[L.C. BAKER]

A friendly suggestion? You may want to purchase a dictionary to go with those grammar lessons.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/supposition

And whatever it is you are holding in your hand...... Your Bluff has been called.


Non puoi insegnare niente a un uomo. Puoi solo aiutarlo a scoprire ciò che ha dentro di sé.

That dog won't hunt! LOL! I got an APP! LMAO!

Has anyone besides me ever called you a grammar Nazi?

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Your Bluff has been called.

[/I]

You have my number, I would be glad to show you enough to shut your lip.

L.C.

P.S. After reading that I realized it is hard to type the tone of your voice and that statement sounded a little threatening. I assure you it is in the best of spirit.

 

[L.C. BAKER]

You have my number, I would be glad to show you enough to shut your lip.

L.C.

P.S. After reading that I realized it is hard to type the tone of your voice and that statement sounded a little threatening. I assure you it is in the best of spirit.

In fact, I may hold a meeting at the site and walk anyone interested through the first part of the trail, seeing as how the pieces have already been recovered. It would be fun to watch your faces when you actually see it for yourselves, and that WOULD be as Ditlilhi says, "The Hook Baited With Disclaimer."
I believe that may draw the crowd I am looking for to find a sponsor and a partner with the proper equipment to get the job done.

Thinking out loud, L.C.

 

[L.C. BAKER]

L.C., sorry to hear about your dad, man. I had no idea. Heart goes to you & papa. Hoping for full recovery. Blessings.

He is as good right now as any other 78 year old with a pacemaker, but he can not take getting into the field and joining the hunt anymore. He has trouble breathing because of COPD. I told him I would buy him an ATV before we get to the second site this Spring. I hope I am not lying to him.

L.C.

 

[Maverick1]

I hope too,..that you are not lying to him. COPD is hard-hard on the body already. But when you combine it with a peacemaker....(what's gonna run the engine)
See what you can do, paisan. A side by side will help, for starters.

Best of luck, sincerely.

 

[White Heart]

Whiteheart, was the person being buried a Judge? Were the pallbearers also judges?

L.C.

LC
I dont think so.
I just spent the morning reading local Masonic history in the form of a full page spread in a old newspaper.
These guys were all Royal Arch Masons and Knights templar, and publicly proud of it. Their meeting days and times are listed in the paper. Special fares were offered in the newspaper for travel to the K.T. National Convention in Kentucky.

And, I found the subject of my research having died one more time, but on this occasion he registered a public claim that he had not actually died! This would have been the first time he died. Gotta keep these things straight.

What I like about history is that you really can't make up anything much more strange than the truth.

Read on!
WH

 

[White Heart]

Thanks for describing the photo White Heart.

I might be able to help on a couple things.

The boys in front of the procession that you said did not hold still.... they would of been Alter Boys each swinging a Thurible which would of had burning charcoal/incense in them. They would not of let the Thurible stop swinging. Also those would not of been Lanterns on a July Day. Formal Christian burials do not take place at night.

The driver of the carriage would of worn White Gloves....sometimes, even now pall bearers and hearse drivers wear White Gloves...they are all transporting the deceased.

The deceased could of had a High Mass or Mass of Christian Burial and Not a Seperate Rosary prayed.

The Priest would of been reading prayers or Praying the Rosary as the casket passed...walked up to the front of the procession to the graveyard for burial still praying or saying the Rosary.

The men behind the hearse/wagon could of been pall bearers, family and Knights of Columbus brothers with women from the family, women from the Church or Daughters of Isabella following.

It was common as a horse drawn hearse or wagon carrying a casket for people walking to stop walking or going about their business as the procession passed as a sign of respect. In fact it was very uncommon and disrespectful Not to stop what you were doing. Today people pull their vehicles over and stop when a funeral procession is approaching as a sign of respect. You can see in your picture there is a building behind the man... Anyone walking the streets would of stopped.

The photo was probably taken leaving the Church which usually were close to or in close proximity to businesses. Especially in ethnic settlements, like Italian. Usually the cemetery was not far away.

July...1909...Very possible the man was not embalmed... instead of having a separate Rosary prayed the night before, the Rosary could of been prayed enroute to and at the gravesite after Mass at the Church.

It sounds like you know the family...and saw Woodmen of the World monuments... Was this burial in a Catholic Cemetery or in a separate area of a cemetery with consecrated grounds?

I do have another couple of questions though... How do you know the other man was wearing a CROSS DRAW Pistol? You said It was low on his left hip...that's pretty dangerous to be wearing one Cross Draw Pistol.

The other Question is...Knights Templar was disbanded in 1312 by Pope Clement V....some were given absolution... most killed for atrocities against the Church...but there were other orders that followed....I'd look at those symbols again to see which is on the monument... Post a pic of the monument showing those symbols without the mans name... lots of knowledgeable people here who know symbols. Did the guys grandson say he was Knights Templar also or is there a symbol on the tombstone that makes you think KT?

I realize I'm making an educated guess on this guy being Italian or Sicilian... You said Priest, so I'm going Catholic too, but from the picture shown and description given....to me that's what it all points to.

Hope this helps and please do tell the rest of this story.

Kace

Kace
The street is empty except for the procession and the object of my research, with the butt of the handle of his pistol clearly showing on his left thigh.
They are on their way to the church.
Thanks for the info about the incense burners.
The gentleman had died less than 24 hours before this high noon photo.
Same symbol on headstone as on the meeting announcements in the newspaper. Seems clear to me.
WH

 

[releventchair]

Thanks for describing the photo White Heart.

I might be able to help on a couple things.

The boys in front of the procession that you said did not hold still.... they would of been Alter Boys each swinging a Thurible which would of had burning charcoal/incense in them. They would not of let the Thurible stop swinging. Also those would not of been Lanterns on a July Day. Formal Christian burials do not take place at night.

The driver of the carriage would of worn White Gloves....sometimes, even now pall bearers and hearse drivers wear White Gloves...they are all transporting the deceased.

The deceased could of had a High Mass or Mass of Christian Burial and Not a Seperate Rosary prayed.

The Priest would of been reading prayers or Praying the Rosary as the casket passed...walked up to the front of the procession to the graveyard for burial still praying or saying the Rosary.

The men behind the hearse/wagon could of been pall bearers, family and Knights of Columbus brothers with women from the family, women from the Church or Daughters of Isabella following.

It was common as a horse drawn hearse or wagon carrying a casket for people walking to stop walking or going about their business as the procession passed as a sign of respect. In fact it was very uncommon and disrespectful Not to stop what you were doing. Today people pull their vehicles over and stop when a funeral procession is approaching as a sign of respect. You can see in your picture there is a building behind the man... Anyone walking the streets would of stopped.

The photo was probably taken leaving the Church which usually were close to or in close proximity to businesses. Especially in ethnic settlements, like Italian. Usually the cemetery was not far away.

July...1909...Very possible the man was not embalmed... instead of having a separate Rosary prayed the night before, the Rosary could of been prayed enroute to and at the gravesite after Mass at the Church.

It sounds like you know the family...and saw Woodmen of the World monuments... Was this burial in a Catholic Cemetery or in a separate area of a cemetery with consecrated grounds?

I do have another couple of questions though... How do you know the other man was wearing a CROSS DRAW Pistol? You said It was low on his left hip...that's pretty dangerous to be wearing one Cross Draw Pistol.

The other Question is...Knights Templar was disbanded in 1312 by Pope Clement V....some were given absolution... most killed for atrocities against the Church...but there were other orders that followed....I'd look at those symbols again to see which is on the monument... Post a pic of the monument showing those symbols without the mans name... lots of knowledgeable people here who know symbols. Did the guys grandson say he was Knights Templar also or is there a symbol on the tombstone that makes you think KT?

I realize I'm making an educated guess on this guy being Italian or Sicilian... You said Priest, so I'm going Catholic too, but from the picture shown and description given....to me that's what it all points to.

Hope this helps and please do tell the rest of this story.

Kace

Great stuff. Thanks for sharing it.
Don't know what the deceased in the pic/subject"s family did ,but wakes were common for some folks.
Some had their coffin already . Some self built and stashed under a bed.

A cross draw pistol rig can be used a couple ways.
When handle/grips are facing forward ,that allows the weak (off) hand to draw with just a turn of the wrist if the strong hand is busy while still allowing the strong hand to grasp it in a cross draw normally.
Or if the user was unfortunate and had a holster designed for a right hand shooter if they were left handed... position holster worn in could reflect that.
If a cross draw looking rig ,and grips face rearward...It is most likely being drawn with same hand that holster is on.

Some times seating of user matters in deciding a set up.
Where to wear holster on a shared buckboard for example if the user drives most often. Reins on a horse too keep one hand busy ,depending on horses training in a given style ; one hand can be used on saddle horses for most purposes but which hand is the riders preference. Awkward using weak hand.

Knowing which hand (if either) a rigs user preferred helps tell how they used it. A picture wearing it combined would be real telling.

 

[White Heart]

Great stuff. Thanks for sharing it.
Don't know what the deceased in the pic/subject"s family did ,but wakes were common for some folks.
Some had their coffin already . Some self built and stashed under a bed.

A cross draw pistol rig can be used a couple ways.
When handle/grips are facing forward ,that allows the weak (off) hand to draw with just a turn of the wrist if the strong hand is busy while still allowing the strong hand to grasp it in a cross draw normally.
Or if the user was unfortunate and had a holster designed for a right hand shooter if they were left handed... position holster worn in could reflect that.
If a cross draw looking rig ,and grips face rearward...It is most likely being drawn with same hand that holster is on.

Some times seating of user matters in deciding a set up.
Where to wear holster on a shared buckboard for example if the user drives most often. Reins on a horse too keep one hand busy ,depending on horses training in a given style ; one hand can be used on saddle horses for most purposes but which hand is the riders preference. Awkward using weak hand.

Knowing which hand (if either) a rigs user preferred helps tell how they used it. A picture wearing it combined would be real telling.

Releventchair,
I thank you for cross draw info.
I cannot see the wearers right hip, but based on his reputation and exploits he might have two.

WH

 

[Maverick1]

LC
I dont think so.
I just spent the morning reading local Masonic history in the form of a full page spread in a old newspaper.
These guys were all Royal Arch Masons and Knights templar, and publicly proud of it. Their meeting days and times are listed in the paper. Special fares were offered in the newspaper for travel to the K.T. National Convention in Kentucky.

And, I found the subject of my research having died one more time, but on this occasion he registered a public claim that he had not actually died!

What I like about history is that you really can't make up anything much more strange than the truth.

Read on!
WH

"What I like about history is that you really can't make up anything much more strange than the truth."

Fascinating, ...please tell more.

 

[White Heart]

Thanks for describing the photo White Heart.

I might be able to help on a couple things.


The Priest would of been reading prayers or Praying the Rosary as the casket passed...walked up to the front of the procession to the graveyard for burial still praying or saying the Rosary.

The men behind the hearse/wagon could of been pall bearers, family and Knights of Columbus brothers with women from the family, women from the Church or Daughters of Isabella following.


It sounds like you know the family...and saw Woodmen of the World monuments... Was this burial in a Catholic Cemetery or in a separate area of a cemetery with consecrated grounds?


It realize I'm making an educated guess on this guy being Italian or Sicilian... You said Priest, so I'm going Catholic too, but from the picture shown and description given....to me that's what it all points to.

Hope this helps and please do tell the rest of this story.

Kace

Thank you Kace, we all learn.

In this case, "Our Man" is marching shoulder to shoulder with the priest, who may be the Bishop.(working on it).
Does this have significance?

It is certainly a very ordered affair.

The resting places are in a Catholic cemetery. They are together, but it seems to be by date of death rather than distinct plots. Rather egalitarian, first come first served. Families are scattered.
I was near the end of the small cemeteries usefulness, a new one was opened soon after. Still 1st come 1st served.

I believe they are all Americans.

Around here, Masons set the corner stones on the Jewish Temple, the Catholic cathedral, and the Presbyterian church, in fact one catholic church has an equilateral triangle over the door with Yahweh written inside. Go figure.

WH

 

[Maverick1]

Thank you Kace, we all learn.

In this case, "Our Man" is marching shoulder to shoulder with the priest, who may be the Bishop.(working on it).
Does this have significance?

It is certainly a very ordered affair.

The resting places are in a Catholic cemetery. They are together, but it seems to be by date of death rather than distinct plots. Rather egalitarian, first come first served. Families are scattered.
I was near the end of the small cemeteries usefulness, a new one was opened soon after. Still 1st come 1st served.

I believe they are all Americans.

Around here, Masons set the corner stones on the Jewish Temple, the Catholic cathedral, and the Presbyterian church, in fact one catholic church has an equilateral triangle over the door with Yahweh written inside. Go figure.

WH

"in fact one catholic church has an equilateral triangle over the door with Yahweh written inside. Go figure."

We do too,...on our paper money. (Great Seal)

(great stuff, keep it coming. TY)


quick edit, addition

Yahweh, sometimes YHWH, as well as latin Iehovah or anglo Jehovah, are Judeo-Christian names for GOD.
(Hebrew name Adonai)
Annuit Coeptis on the Seal, refers to the eye of Providence as God's eye which sits inside a triangle which is the top of the Piramid. Always on the Apex and highest position above mankind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annuit_cœptis

(hope the link works,...got a winter storm AZ style which is messing with my int.conn., sorry)

 

[Kace]

You're Exactly Right WH....I learn something new everyday!

RelevantChair is exactly right on the Cross Draw Pistols... Your guy having One is what threw me...I have a shoulder holster design for two to be worn under a jacket. Sitting down is the primary reason for them to be worn on the hip. He gave great examples! His description of caskets and wakes are right on too. If there was no embalming everything was done quickly...especially in the summer months when it's hot.

Hopefully a knowledgeable Mason will jump in on the Masonic stuff.. I didn't realize you were talking about the Royal Arch Mason KT that took their name from the original Knights Templar. Sorry. It didn't enter my mind he could be a Mason and Catholic.

The Masons and Catholic Church together especially in that time period is confusing to me as well... The Pope pretty much disallowed that and no good Catholic would of been a Mason. Not that it Couldn't Happen but I would be surprised there would of been a Mass of Christian burial for a Catholic Mason especially in the Church.

If there was a Catholic Bishop in that procession, he would have adornments on and be ahead of the Priest....To have a High Mass or Mass of Christian Burial the deceased would of had to be in very good standing with the Church...Being a Mason would not have been in good standing with the Catholic Church...

You said he was married twice... To be in good standing with the Church He would of had to be widowed and both wives never previously married or they were widows before marrying him. No Divorces. There is the Annulment loophole, but in that era it's doubtful...Also, if there was a divorce... any ex would have to have died before marrying him in the Church for him to be in good standing... none could of even received communion.

Good Luck WH...Sounds Like An Interesting Story!

Kace

 

[L.C. BAKER]

You're Exactly Right WH....I learn something new everyday!

RelevantChair is exactly right on the Cross Draw Pistols... Your guy having One is what threw me...I have a shoulder holster design for two to be worn under a jacket. Sitting down is the primary reason for them to be worn on the hip. He gave great examples! His description of caskets and wakes are right on too. If there was no embalming everything was done quickly...especially in the summer months when it's hot.

Hopefully, a knowledgeable Mason will jump in on the Masonic stuff.. I didn't realize you were talking about the Royal Arch Mason KT that took their name from the original Knights Templar. Sorry. It didn't enter my mind he could be a Mason and Catholic.

The Masons and Catholic Church together especially in that time period is confusing to me as well... The Pope pretty much disallowed that and no good Catholic would of been a Mason. Not that it Couldn't Happen but I would be surprised there would of been a Mass of Christian burial for a Catholic Mason especially in the Church.

If there was a Catholic Bishop in that procession, he would have adornments on and be ahead of the Priest....To have a High Mass or Mass of Christian Burial the deceased would of had to be in very good standing with the Church...Being a Mason would not have been in good standing with the Catholic Church...

You said he was married twice... To be in good standing with the Church He would of had to be widowed and both wives never previously married or they were widows before marrying him. No Divorces. There is the Annulment loophole, but in that era it's doubtful...Also, if there was a divorce... any ex would have to have died before marrying him in the Church for him to be in good standing... none could of even received communion.

Good Luck WH...Sounds Like An Interesting Story!

Kace

I did not want to post this until I knew it was not the same person being buried in the photo. That is why I asked about the judges. Judge Doom may have had a similar funeral to your man. PatandMelOakesFamilySite He was pretty far up the ladder and had a large funeral with Masonic rights given to him upon his death.

http://web.mit.edu/dryfoo/Masons/Misc/funeral-IL.pdf



https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/40836195/david-williams-doom

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Senior Decan is the one you want to talk to about the specifics.


L.C.

 

[White Heart]

You're Exactly Right WH....I learn something new everyday!

RelevantChair is exactly right on the Cross Draw Pistols... Your guy having One is what threw me...I have a shoulder holster design for two to be worn under a jacket. Sitting down is the primary reason for them to be worn on the hip. He gave great examples! His description of caskets and wakes are right on too. If there was no embalming everything was done quickly...especially in the summer months when it's hot.

Hopefully a knowledgeable Mason will jump in on the Masonic stuff.. I didn't realize you were talking about the Royal Arch Mason KT that took their name from the original Knights Templar. Sorry. It didn't enter my mind he could be a Mason and Catholic.

The Masons and Catholic Church together especially in that time period is confusing to me as well... The Pope pretty much disallowed that and no good Catholic would of been a Mason. Not that it Couldn't Happen but I would be surprised there would of been a Mass of Christian burial for a Catholic Mason especially in the Church.

If there was a Catholic Bishop in that procession, he would have adornments on and be ahead of the Priest....To have a High Mass or Mass of Christian Burial the deceased would of had to be in very good standing with the Church...Being a Mason would not have been in good standing with the Catholic Church...

You said he was married twice... To be in good standing with the Church He would of had to be widowed and both wives never previously married or they were widows before marrying him. No Divorces. There is the Annulment loophole, but in that era it's doubtful...Also, if there was a divorce... any ex would have to have died before marrying him in the Church for him to be in good standing... none could of even received communion.

Good Luck WH...Sounds Like An Interesting Story!

Kace

Things are not always as we were told they were to be.

I am a storyteller and I have three or four good, fact based, stories with which to enlighten you about religion, Masonry and everyday ordinary ancient knowledge in the Territories, Kace. But not today.

The man I am studying seems to have been married to two different women in 2 different states from 1860-61 until his deaths, first in 1902 in state A which he later denied; in 1910 in state A(2 different obituaries) , 1915 in state B(state records) and then shows back up in state A to only to die in 1920(church records). His Brothers were gone by then and "she A" did not buy him a headstone.
In state A, he and his parents were from different states in every census 1860 to 1910. Only in the last census before departing did he give the same birth info as his state B self.

WH

 

[White Heart]

Maverick1 wrote
"Yahweh, sometimes YHWH, as well as latin Iehovah or anglo Jehovah, are Judeo-Christian names for GOD.
(Hebrew name Adonai)"

M1
Here is a pic of the triangle.
In Hebrew.


Be well

Maybe our man has told us enough and we should let him get on with what he was doing.
WH

 

[Maverick1]

Maverick1 wrote
"Yahweh, sometimes YHWH, as well as latin Iehovah or anglo Jehovah, are Judeo-Christian names for GOD.
(Hebrew name Adonai)"

M1
Here is a pic of the triangle.
In Hebrew.

View attachment 1557023
Be well

Maybe our man has told us enough and we should let him get on with what he was doing.
WH

And right you are the second time.
YHWH in a triangle as per Torah, (from right to the left)…and YAHWEH from left to right as the Catholic/Masonic Church.(first one) also in a triangle. Can you say sacred Geometry?

Adonai, the former forbidden name to be pronounced up-loud, was/is mostly used in the Kabbalah.

L’chaim WH, TY for a great depiction

(as you know ALL religions were/are accepted in Masonry, as long as they admit to the existence of All-powerful
Great Architect

(in jewish prayers it's always Adonai that is praised)