Where did the gold go?

[piratediver]

We have not sold any artifacts from the WHYDAH and we have a traveling show which has already generated more income than if all the goodies were sold. Obviously not all wrecks are as interesting as a pirate ship so this is a special case.


Pirate Diver

 

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[Oceanscience]

We have not sold any artifacts from the WHYDAH and we have a traveling show which has already generated more income than if all the goodies were sold. Obviously not all wrecks are as interesting as a pirate ship so this is a special case.


Pirate Diver

Many, including myself, find pirate ships fascinating.

Pirate ships are also a very good example of an archaeological treasure. A time capsule with an immense amount of information that can not be found in history books and archives.

Piracy was illicit and little real information is available of how these people lived and the reason why they chose to be pirates.

Esquemelin, a pirate himself, wrote THE book about the buccaneers and their life. Can we believe his story? A pirate ship can give us evidence that confirms the pirate stories.

By the way, I know the whereabouts of several documented and actually famous pirate ships, if somebody is interested to have a close look at them.

I loved pirate stories when I was a kid. It would be a dream come true to hold a real pirate's cutlass in my hands, to uncover the real story of the ship and the crew and their famous captain.

It is also a captivating story that would have many followers on YouTube if we would publish a daily video of the excavation progress.

 

[ScubaFinder]

A Pirate ship would certainly lend itself well to making $$ without selling artifacts. A little help from our friends at Disney and you're good to go. I always thought partnering with Disney to salvage a pirate vessel and create a museum / attraction with the artifacts was a great way to go....not that the state archaeologists would approve, but when tourism dollars are involved...they can be over-ruled. I too know the general whereabouts of one of Roberto Cofressi's ships wrecked along the north coast of the Dominican Republic. Our project ended before we got a chance to investigate the area much, but what we do know is more than compelling.

Salvor + Disney + Pirate Ship = $$ without selling artifacts.

Problem solved. :-)

 

[bikerlawyer]

Nice idea Jason except Disney stuff is always faked. I doubt they would want to spend any time or money trying to salvage the real thing when the majority of people who visit their parks can be easily fooled anyway.

 

[Alexandre]

Salvor + Disney + Pirate Ship = $$ without selling artifacts.

Problem solved. :-)

This is Goddio's approach, too.

 

[Oceanscience]

A Pirate ship would certainly lend itself well to making $$ without selling artifacts. A little help from our friends at Disney and you're good to go. I always thought partnering with Disney to salvage a pirate vessel and create a museum / attraction with the artifacts was a great way to go....not that the state archaeologists would approve, but when tourism dollars are involved...they can be over-ruled. I too know the general whereabouts of one of Roberto Cofressi's ships wrecked along the north coast of the Dominican Republic. Our project ended before we got a chance to investigate the area much, but what we do know is more than compelling.

Salvor + Disney + Pirate Ship = $$ without selling artifacts.

Problem solved. :-)

Thanks for the excellent feedback.

Is it a workable solution? We are certainly getting closer.

May I twist your equation a little bit?

Salvor & Archaeologist + Entertainment industry + Pirate ship. We could say that these are some of the main ingredients.

But, maybe we need to sort out the ownership of the pirate ship first.

Let's look at whom might claim ownership. Dominican Republic? Nobody else? What nationality was the pirate? Was he a pirate or corsair or privateer?
Whom did he rob? Could anybody claim on behalf of his victims?

Was Roberto Cofressi a local hero? Might the local community claim ownership of his heritage?

Is the local community a good place to build a tourist attraction that would give them the benefit (jobs, income) of their historic heritage?

Who was Roberto Cofressi anyway? What do we know of him? Can you point us to a historian who is an expert on him?

Many questions, but the answers will give a pattern that can be applied to many other shipwrecks.

There were quite a lot of pirates, but only a few left tangible traces.

Pirate shipwrecks are rare things and could well be considered "World Heritage", not only "National Treasure"

 

[Oceanscience]

For a brief description on Cofresi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Cofresí

 

[Alexandre]

May I twist your equation a little bit?

Salvor & Archaeologist + Entertainment industry + Pirate ship. We could say that these are some of the main ingredients.

Cross "salvor" and use instead "project manager". Again, look at Goddio, who came from a treasure hunting venture on the "San Diego" and is now holding hands with UNESCO.

His association with the Hilti Foundation, his Alexandria's Sunken Treasures Exhibition tour (almost no gold there) which is generating huge revenues, all are strokes of a marketeer's genius:


http://www.hiltifoundation.org/en/projects/project.php?pID=12


http://www.franckgoddio.org/

 

[Oceanscience]

May I twist your equation a little bit?

Salvor & Archaeologist + Entertainment industry + Pirate ship. We could say that these are some of the main ingredients.

Cross "salvor" and use instead "project manager". Again, look at Goddio, who came from a treasure hunting venture on the "San Diego" and is now holding hands with UNESCO.

His association with the Hilti Foundation, his Alexandria's Sunken Treasures Exhibition tour (almost no gold there) which is generating huge revenues, all are strokes of a marketeer's genius:


http://www.hiltifoundation.org/en/projects/project.php?pID=12


http://www.franckgoddio.org/

Fantastic example of what is possible, thanks Alexandre.

I like your "almost no gold there". Who needs gold if he has Cleopatra.

What is needed is a big headline. Tons of gold can give you that. A pirate ship can give you that. Many things can give you that and you do not even need to own these things.

A big headline gets the advertising and with it the marketing started. Then it is up to you to ride the wave. You better be ready.
You have to be ready to sell your story.
You have to be ready to sell your dream.
You have to be ready to sell your intellectual property.

Did you notice how we slipped from the solid glittering gold into the virtual world.

We live in the kingdom of the virtual world.

The virtual world where young kids of 27 years can become billionaires (Facebook, hint)

And, yes, I like the "project manager"

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

We have not sold any artifacts from the WHYDAH and we have a traveling show which has already generated more income than if all the goodies were sold. Obviously not all wrecks are as interesting as a pirate ship so this is a special case.


Pirate Diver

Odyssey take note !!!!!
Ossy

 

[Oceanscience]

We have not sold any artifacts from the WHYDAH and we have a traveling show which has already generated more income than if all the goodies were sold. Obviously not all wrecks are as interesting as a pirate ship so this is a special case.


Pirate Diver

Odyssey take note !!!!!
Ossy

Ossy,

I am sure you can do better than that.
Bring some ideas to the table.

What is your solution to the problem of the economics of shipwreck heritage conservation?

 

[ScubaFinder]

Ossy just trolls around trying to stir the Oddysey pot on threads that have NOTHING to do with him or Oddysey. Ignore him and he'll go away...hopefully.

Now back to the topic of this thread, I like Goddio's stuff, definitely has a marketing genius on his staff. That's my above-water job by the way, online marketing. We don't have an Alexandria off the coast of Florida, so I am forced to find a wreck with artifacts that would attract the same media attention. There are a few still out there that fit the bill.

In DR, Cofressi's wreck is in a remote area not suitable for museums or tourists. Closest place that would fit the bill would be Puerto Plata, it has an international airport and a fair tourist trade. I think the government there would be open to the idea if approached properly and by the right people with the right funding.

Jason

 

[Oceanscience]

Ossy just trolls around trying to stir the Oddysey pot on threads that have NOTHING to do with him or Oddysey. Ignore him and he'll go away...hopefully.

Now back to the topic of this thread, I like Goddio's stuff, definitely has a marketing genius on his staff. That's my above-water job by the way, online marketing. We don't have an Alexandria off the coast of Florida, so I am forced to find a wreck with artifacts that would attract the same media attention. There are a few still out there that fit the bill.

In DR, Cofressi's wreck is in a remote area not suitable for museums or tourists. Closest place that would fit the bill would be Puerto Plata, it has an international airport and a fair tourist trade. I think the government there would be open to the idea if approached properly and by the right people with the right funding.

Jason

Thanks for the feedback, Jason.

Let's take the pirate Cofresi and his ship as an example.

For a pirate museum to function on the island, we would have to get several hundred thousand visitors per year, each paying about US$10 ticket fee.
The gift shop sales would then be about another US$10, so the revenue would pay for the curating, preserving of the artifacts and the maintenance of the museum.

To get this many visitors we need to tell a compelling story.

The museum needs to be located where there is a large tourist flow. Cruise ships, etc. (check tourism statistics for the island).

Is it economically feasible? Due diligence will tell.

On another front we can make use of the virtual world. If we have a compelling story to tell, if we have good content, if we are capable of updating the website, blog, YouTube, daily with new happenings from the excavation site(s) we can get a lot of views per day.

If we manage 1,000,000 views per day, then the advertising is starting to produce some revenues.
We can also sell some of our own goods, not treasure or artifacts, but videos and books and replicas and all of the usual stuff that merchandising is made off.

Would you be so kind and give us some numbers on the online business?

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

We have not sold any artifacts from the WHYDAH and we have a traveling show which has already generated more income than if all the goodies were sold. Obviously not all wrecks are as interesting as a pirate ship so this is a special case.


Pirate Diver

Odyssey take note !!!!!
Ossy

Ossy,

I am sure you can do better than that.
Bring some ideas to the table.

What is your solution to the problem of the economics of shipwreck heritage conservation?

Oceanscience Your right, wrong blog for Odyssey.
I think selling artifacts is wrong, Who does it benefit ! only the private collector, who miss's out, humanity !
Economics of shipwreck heritage conservation: I feel all nations should have a heritage fund which could cover the cost of on going conservation and
exploration for important historical wrecks.
The WHYDAH shows how we all love history, and how it should be shared and not sold !
Can you imagine how many people will visit the Mercedes exhibition in Madrid and see thousands of coins all together in one area, especially
with all the hype.
The other option, slowly sell off to private collectors and then they may not be seen again
We all love a piece of history but most people can't afford them, but they could easily pay for a museum ticket.
Just think how much governments waste on defense budgets and dumb political campaigns
Ossy

 

[Oceanscience]

We have not sold any artifacts from the WHYDAH and we have a traveling show which has already generated more income than if all the goodies were sold. Obviously not all wrecks are as interesting as a pirate ship so this is a special case.


Pirate Diver

Odyssey take note !!!!!
Ossy

Ossy,

I am sure you can do better than that.
Bring some ideas to the table.

What is your solution to the problem of the economics of shipwreck heritage conservation?

Oceanscience Your right, wrong blog for Odyssey.
I think selling artifacts is wrong, Who does it benefit ! only the private collector, who miss's out, humanity !
Economics of shipwreck heritage conservation: I feel all nations should have a heritage fund which could cover the cost of on going conservation and
exploration for important historical wrecks.
The WHYDAH shows how we all love history, and how it should be shared and not sold !
Can you imagine how many people will visit the Mercedes exhibition in Madrid and see thousands of coins all together in one area, especially
with all the hype.
The other option, slowly sell off to private collectors and then they may not be seen again
We all love a piece of history but most people can't afford them, but they could easily pay for a museum ticket.
Just think how much governments waste on defense budgets and dumb political campaigns
Ossy

I agree on the governments waste. In the democratic world, the tax payers are supposed to have their say about how their tax money is spent.
In real life it is not quite so, that is why we have the street protests and "Occupy Wall Street" movements.
Strikes and street protests cause a lot of damage. Bad politics cause immense damage. How much of the world heritage is destroyed in every war? These things need to change.

Should the governments fund projects that are only in the interest of a few?

Should the tax payers demand better accounting for their hard earned tax money?

It is happening, slowly but surely. The world is getting rid of the last dictators. Then the world will get rid of the governments that are bad managers of the tax payers money. After all, it is the tax payers who pay for the government's salaries.

So, when we plan for the future, we should make a plan that makes sense to the tax payers.

Now, private enterprise is a bit different.
Private enterprise can cater for a few. If the few are willing to pay, the economic balance can be achieved.
If we look back a few hundred years, we see that it was the private collectors who took care of the heritage, not the governments. It is the governments who make the wars, not the private collectors.

But the world is changing.

UNESCO is an effort to preserve the heritage world wide. However, for this to work, first the world must become truly democratic, where the majority of the people, the tax payers, decide things, without being manipulated.

Will we ever get there?

About the people visiting the heap of coins from the Mercedes? For the first few months, yes, but it will be not a viable business. It will be another waste of tax payers money.

It needs a lot more that a heap of coins to capture the attention of the tourists.

The solution of the economics of shipwreck conservation must be economically viable.

Anything that is not economically viable will cease to exist. This is a fundamental law of the universe.

 

[Oceanscience]

Let's look at a different angle:

What does the Archaeologist want. Alexandre, would you be so kind and give us a description what a typical Archaeologist wants?
What are his aspirations.
What are his goals.
What makes him happy.

And on the other side, A Treasure Hunter. Jason would you be so kind and represent the Treasure Hunters?
I know that treasure hunting is your passion, but could you describe for us what it realy means to you?

Maybe the Maritime Archaeologist and the Treasure Hunter have quite similar goals and aspirations, but just ride a different horse?

 

[Alexandre]

Let's look at a different angle:

What does the Archaeologist want. Alexandre, would you be so kind and give us a description what a typical Archaeologist wants?
What are his aspirations.
What are his goals.
What makes him happy.

Bottom line?

1) An archaeological record and a conservation process according to state of the art/best practice.
2) No artifacts to be sold/dispersed.

From there, I am game to anything.

 

[VOC]

You can’t meet either of them then Alexandre

1) An archaeological record and a conservation process according to state of the art/best practice.
2) No artefacts to be sold/dispersed.

Proffesional archaeologist never have the funds to record or conserve to best practice, you all dip into a wreck until the money runs out or you get bored or just find a more interesting project to work on. You can count on one hand how many wrecks that have been recorded properly by any academic archaeologist.

And as for not selling or dispersing artefacts don’t make me laugh, museums sell, loan, swap and lose artefacts all the time.

Go to any archaeological project 10 years after excavation and try and round up all the artefacts recovered. Most of them lose the records within two years and then they are completely screwed as to where it is all gone.

 

[Alexandre]

You can’t meet either of them then Alexandre

You're wrong.

INA does it all the time. As does Parks Canada. As does the Western Australia Museum. As does the CASC, in Spain. As does the Mary Rose Trust. As does the UNESCO Underwater Archaeology Center, in Zadar. As does the DRASSM, in France, as does the RPM Nautical Foundation.

 

[Darren in NC]

1) An archaeological record and a conservation process according to state of the art/best practice.

No argument here. I agree.

2) No artifacts to be sold/dispersed.

I'm genuinely curious how this has anything to do with archaeology. Non-profits buy and sell all the time...or display private collections.