Where is all that Gold and Silver?

[Peg Leg]

Don, I never mentioned investors, or insinuated you were looking for any. That is not what 'cost effective" means.

It means, is the time, aggrevation, wear and tear on your equipment, jeopardizing your life and spending money (yours or someone elses) recovering a shipwreck going to give you a greater return than what you put into it?

In many cases, searching for or excavating a shipwreck it is not cost effective and that's why some folks "don't have the balls to get in the water" as you so bitterly posted (then removed).

You know very well, in the state of Florida, it take more than a "few people with the right equipment" to excavate a shipwreck. Don't forget the permits from the state, DEP and Army Corp, the paperwork and required reports, cost for an archaeologist and a marine biologist (for the required benthic survey) and what have you.

If you are not prepared to do all of this, maybe it is better you go back to collecting pottery shards on the banks of the St Johns River?

I fully understand what it takes to work a ship wreck but what I am concerend about is that SPAIN may tie everuthing up because they could claim that they NEVER abandoned a ship anywhere in the world and the State of Florida claims that ANY shipwreck found in within Florida waters IS abandoned.
Spain could and would file a claim just to screw with anyone wanting to recovery this ship even if it does turn out to be a CORTEZ ship.
THE OTHER WRECK I COULD CARE LESS ABOUT as it has no value to anyone.
You must also understand that I am not telling everything I know about this wreck and I DO have a Marine biologist and a Marine Archaeoglogist but what I do not have is a Marine Attorney but until the survey work is complete I see no reason for one at this time.
Thank you for your concern.
Don

 

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[diver420]

People ask me WHY am I wanting to get permission from Spain and the answer is simple BECAUSE THEY OWN THE SHIP OR THE CORTES HEIRS OWN THE SHIP. I already have permission from the Cortes Heirs and am seeking permission from the Government of Spain to start recovering artifacts.

Quote from "Peg Leg" above from a previous post on the "Ghost Ship"
I tell you this guy is all B.S.!

 

[FISHEYE]

pegleg,

You saying that your ghost ship is spanish here is just enough for the spanish to make it so you cant have it.until you or whoever you get to dive on it and recover anything that suggests that its from spain it is a UNKNOWN or PIRATE wreck.im sure that lawyer(James Goold) from spain just loves watching the posts here to plan his next lawsuit to get all your treasure or make it so you dont.it wont matter if you have permission from the heirs.

 

[Peg Leg]

People ask me WHY am I wanting to get permission from Spain and the answer is simple BECAUSE THEY OWN THE SHIP OR THE CORTES HEIRS OWN THE SHIP. I already have permission from the Cortes Heirs and am seeking permission from the Government of Spain to start recovering artifacts.

Quote from "Peg Leg" above from a previous post on the "Ghost Ship"
I tell you this guy is all B.S.!

diver420,
Now I know what your problem is TO MUCH GOLD mixed with some SHROOMS. Gotta be careful when you mix the two.
I WAS INFORMED WHAT THE 420 STANDS FOR. It started with the GREATFULL DEAD
I am putting you on IGNORE.
Peg Leg

 

[mariner]

Cornelius, Fisheye, et al:

For your information, I am the personal representative of the sole current heir of Cortes, and of the previous heirs to Cortes, and the sole agent for her, worldwide, in matters of shipwrecks and materials related to shipwrecks. I will not divulge her name here, to protect her from uninvited and unwanted contact, but I can tell you, Cornelius, that she is a woman who lives in Northern Italy. She was born on the Cortes Estates in Cuernavaca, and had to flee Mexico with her father, Antonio Aragona Pignatelli Cortes, the 18th Marques of the Valley of Oaxaca, when their estates, and those of other foreign landowners, were confiscated by the Mexican Government. Cortes was given the hereditary title of Marques of the Valley of Oaxcaca by Emperor Charles V after conquering Mexico.

I can also confirm that I have given Peg Leg permission to examine his Ghost ship if it is a Cortes ship, and he has given me information that would suggest it is possible that it is a Cortes ship. If this proves to be the case, then I see no difficulty in reaching an agreement with Peg Leg about recovering it in a proper manner that would also be very beneficial to him. It might be that Florida might lodge some kind of claim, but the 1902 Treaty between Spain and the USA and the subsequent SeaHunt case have clearly established that Spanish shipwrecks in US waters are not abandoned and therefore do not belong to the Coastal State.

As for Spain and Jim Goold, I read a lot of things about their attitudes that are way off the mark, and in the main written by people who have had no contact with either. From the outset, SeaHunt appear to have been very uncooperative with Spain about the Juno and LaGalga, so it is not surprising that Spain were uncooperative with them at a later stage, and Odyssey's attitude to Spain in connection with the Black Swan has elicited exactly the kind of response you might expect in return. That has not been my experience with Mr. Goold, nor with people within the Spanish Government.

While it is up to Spain to determine their position in regard to shipwrecks that legally belong to them, their private position on wrecks that were privately owned may be another matter altogether.

In some of his projects, Peg Leg may be tilting at windmills (with apologies to Rio Bravo) but I, for one, admire his tenacity and eternal optimism, and hope that one of his wrecks does turn out to be a Cortes ship, so I can help him realize the benefits from it.

Mariner

 

[FISHEYE]

The Genealogy of Hernando Cortes

Marquis of the Valley of Oaxaca


Don Hernando Cortes
Parents: Martin Cortes de Monroy and Catalina Pizarro Altamirano
Paternal Grandparents: Rodrigo Fernandez de Monroy and Maria Cortes
Maternal Grandparents: Diego Altamirano and Leonor Sanchez Pizarro Altamirano
Paternal Great Grandparents: Rodrigo de Monroy, Mencia de Orellana y Carvajal
Diego de la Cueva, Maria Cortes
Maternal Great Grandparents: Juan Altamirano, Maria de Vivero
Martin Pizarro de Hinojosa, Isabel Rodriquez Altamirano
Paternal Great Great Grandparents (parents of Mencia de Orellana y Carvajal):
Hernando Alfonso de Orellana, Juana Gonzalez de Carvajal
Maternal Great Great Grandparents (parents of Martin Pizarro de Hinojosa):
Hernando Alonso de Hinojosa, Teresa Martinez Pizarro
Maternal Great Great Grandparents (parents of Isabel Rodriguez Altamirano):
Benito Hernandez Altamirano, Isabel Rodriguez de Aguilar

Natural children of Don Hernando Cortes:
1. Martin Cortes - son of dona Marina (Malinche)
Married: dona Bernaldina de Porras Daughter: Ana
Son: Fernando Cortes - Principal judge of Veracruz
The New World of Martin Cortes
The life story of the person called the "First Mestizo".
Descendants of this line are alive today in Mexico.
A good read with a lot of insight.


2. Luis - son of dona Antonia Hermosillo
3. dona Catalina Pizarro - daughter of Leonor Pizarro
4. dona Leonor - daughter of Isabel, the oldest
legitimate daughter of Montezuma,
Emperor of Mexico
5. dona Maria - daughter of a Mexica (Aztec) princess.

Don Hernando Cortes received the title of Marquis of the Valley of
Oaxaca in 1529 and died on December 2nd 1547. Here is his line of
succession.

Marriage 1 - In Cuba to Catalina Xuarez Marcaida, Children: none
Died 1522 in Coyoacan.
Marriage 2 - In 1529 to dona Juana Ramirez de Arellano de Zuniga,
daughter of don Carlos Ramirez de Arellano, second Count
of Aguilar and the Countess dona Juana de Zuniga.
Children:
1. Luis - died a child in 1530 in Texcoco.
2. Catalina - died a short time after birth in 1531.
3. Martin - 2nd Marquis of the Valley of Oaxaca, born in Cuernavaca
in 1532.
4. Maria - married don Luis de Quinones, Count of Luna. Born between
1533 and 1536.
5. Catalina - died unmarried in Sevilla after the funeral of her father.
Born between 1533 and 1536.
6. Juana - married the duke Don Fernando Enriquez de Ribera and was
given the title duchess of Alcala and Marquesa of Tarifa.
Born between 1533 and 1536.

Don Martin Cortes, 2nd Marquis of the Valley of Oaxaca
Marriage 1 - dona Ana Ramirez de Arellano (his niece)
1. Don Fernando Cortes Ramirez de Arellano - 3rd Marquis of the Valley of
Oaxaca. Left no heirs. Title passes to his brother.
2. Don Pedro Cortes Ramirez de Arellano - 4th Marquis of the Valley of
Oaxaca. Married dona Ana Pacheco de la Cerda. Died in Mexico in
1629 and left no heirs. Title passes to his sister and is
thereafter ruled from Spain and Italy instead of Mexico.
3. dona Juana Cortes Ramirez de Arellano - 5th Marquesa of the Valley of
Oaxaca. Died in 1628. Married don Pedro Carrillo de Mendoza.
Daughter:

Dona Estefania Carrillo de Mendoza y Cortes - 6th Marquesa of the Valley
of Oaxaca. Died in 1635.
Marriage - don Diego de Aragon, Duke of Terranova.
Daughter:

Dona Juana de Aragon Carrillo de Mendoza y Cortes, 7th Marquesa of the
Valley of Oaxaca. Died in 1653.
Marriage - don Hector Pignatelli, Duke of Monteleone.
Only son:

Don Andres Fabricio Pignatelli de Aragon, Duke of Monteleone, Duke of
Terranova, 8th Marquis of the Valley of Oaxaca.
Marriage - dona Teresa Pimentel y Benavides.
Daughter:

Dona Juana Pignatelli de Aragon, Duchess of Monteleone and of Terranova,
9th Marquesa of the Valley of Oaxaca. Died in 1725.
Marriage - Nicolas Pignatelli.
Son (su hijo primogenito):

Don Diego Pignatelli de Aragon, Duke of Monteleone, Duke of Terranova,
10th Marquis of the Valley of Oaxaca. Died in 1750.
Marriage - dona Margarita Pignatelli.
Son:

Don Andres Fabricio de Aragon, Duke of Monteleone, Duke of Terranova,
11th Marquis of the Valley of Oaxaca. Died in 1765.
Marriage - dona Constanza Medici.
Son:

Don Hector Maria Pignatelli de Aragon, Duke of Monteleone, Duke of
Terranova, 12th Marquis of the Valley of Oaxaca. Died in 1800.
Marriage - dona Anna Maria Piccolomini, of the dukes of Amalfi.
Son:

Don Diego Maria Pignatelli de Aragon, Duke of Monteleone, Duke of
Terranova, 13th Marquis of the Valley of Oaxaca. Died in 1818.
Marriage - dona Maria del Carmen Caracciolo.
Heir was his second son:

Don Jose Pignatelli de Aragon, Duke of Monteleone, Duke of
Terranova, 14th Marquis of the Valley of Oaxaca. Died in 1859.
Marriage - dona Blanca Lucchessi.
Son:

Don Diego Pignatelli de Aragon, Duke of Monteleone, Duke of Terranova,
15th Marquis of the Valley of Oaxaca. Died in 1880.
Marriage - Julia Cattanes.
Left no heir, title passes to his brother:

Don Antonio Pignatelli de Aragon, Duke of Monteleone, Duke of Terranova,
16th Marquis of the Valley of Oaxaca. Born 1827. Died in 1881.
Marriage - dona Mariana Fardella.
Son:

Don Giuseppe Tagliavia Aragona-Pignatelli-Cortes, Duke of Monteleone,
Duke of Terranova, 17th Marquis of the Valley of Oaxaca. Born in
Palermo 1860. Died in 1938.
Marriage - dona Rosa de la Gandara in 1889.
Son:

Antonio Aragona-Pignatelli-Cortes, Duke of Monteleone, Duke of
Terranova, 18th Marquis of the Valley of Oaxaca. Born in Naples
1892.
Marriage - Miss Beatrice Molyneaux of New Orleans, Louisiana USA
in 1931.
Two children

 

[mariner]

Fisheye,

Spot on, but finding the heir from that point was no esay task. The current heir is the sole remaining child of Antonio. Her brother dies in 1984, with no children. The current heir does have children, who are also bound by my agreements with their mother.

Mariner

 

[jeff k]

Mariner... Did you know that heirs do not have a legal claim unless it was "willed" to them? Do you know if Cortes "willed" the ship and cargo to his heirs?

 

[FISHEYE]

Mariner,

So what proof do you have that this woman is a decendant of cortez?anyone can say that they are a relative when theres talk of gold,treasure or large sums of money.its like 2 of my friends.one claims to be a relative of dupont an has been in the courts for the last 40 years trying to get large amounts of money.and another friend claims the same from the hershy chocolate owner.an he has been in the courts for the last 30 years.cortez did spend some time in italy.i could even say i was a cortez heir as my family is italian and roman my decendants go all the way back to the 14th century.but i have better things to do,like finding my own treasure instead being a bottom feeder and try and get someone elses at great expense.even if someone did say they found a shipwreck with cortez gold on it.how would they prove it was one of his ships?no one has even proven what the names of the ships in the 1715 were so far.you could be old an gray by the time the court get finished with it,same goes for your kids.i havent even seen any records that cortez lost any ships with treasure near florida or even any ships at all.find out what shipwreck it is before saying its a cortez ship.you will never know unless you find the bell.

 

[mariner]

Fisheye,

Well, for a start, I had her produce a copy of her birth certificate, which shows her parents as Antonio A-P-C and her mother as Beatrice A-P-C nee Molyneux, the last people shown on the chart you got from the Internet. Also, in 1992, when the 400th celebrations of Columbus's discovery was being celebrated, the Mexican Government took her over to Mexico and staged a meeting between her and the person who is recognized as being the prime descendent of Montezuma. Plus, she is recognized as the Cortes heir by the rest of the living descendents, several of whom I have met or spoken to personally.

I can tell you that at least three ships belonging to Hernan Cortes have been found in recent years, one off Cuba, and two in North America. None of these are in the public domain as yet, but I hope it will not be too long before they are. Cortes also lost several ships on the East Coast, as you will find if you do the research. I can also tell you for certain that positive evidence of a Cortes ship is not limited to a bell.

Then there is the Cortes family ship, the so-called Emerald Treasure Ship, that Victor Benilous of West Palm Beach claims to have found and be looting a number of miles west of Cape Canaveral. I have considerable doubts about his story, but remain interested to hear from anybody who has physically seen or worked on that supposed wreck.

Jeff,

Under the laws of which country are you claiming that to be the case? It is not even true of the United States.

Mariner

 

[jeff k]

Jeff,

Under the laws of which country are you claiming that to be the case? It is not even true of the United States.

Mariner

Mariner... That's what I've been told by a very reliable source. I assume he was referring to Admiralty Law, since he has a dozen admiralty lawyers working with him... Jeff

 

[mariner]

Fisheye,

Your comments are so misplaced and incorrect that they are not worth responding to. And your last sentence exemplifies why Treasure Hunters have such a bad reputation ... it's because of people like you.

Jeff,

I have also discussed this with what I would describe as a pre-eminent US maritime attorney, and he has an entirely different view. Wouldn't life be dull if there were no court cases because lawyers all had the same opinion of what the law meant ?

Mariner

 

[mariner]

Cornelius,

I do not know if Peg Leg's ghost ship exists or not, or if it is a Cortes ship, but he told me about an object that had supposedly been found at that point some years ago, which sounds like it could be an important Aztec artifact. So if it did come off a ship, it is possible that it could have been in the process of being transported by a ship belonging to Cortes. My main point in giving him permission to examine the ship is to establish that it is not just the State of Florida that has rights and privileges in respect of shipwrecks in its waters: indeed if the wreck is Spanish, then the State of Florida has no rights with repect to the wreck (though they will have rights with respect to the ground it is sitting on or in.) I do not think that Florida should be tying people like Peg Leg up in rules and regulations that are unfounded and unconstitutional when it comes to Spanish ships, which an awful lot of Florida wrecks are. Time will tell.

As to the three Cortes ships that I mentioned, I know exactly which ships they are, and have a lengthy list of items that were on them when they set off from port. One particular item found on one of the ships can be definitively associated with Cortes, and may be the most important single artifact to emerge from the conquest of the New World. Incidentally, it is not an Aztec artifact, but something manufactured by Cortes himself. Do not ask me to elaborate further, because I will not at this stage, but the story will emerge eventually, and a damned good story it is.

Mariner

 

[Darren in NC]

In some of his projects, Peg Leg may be tilting at windmills (with apologies to Rio Bravo) but I, for one, admire his tenacity and eternal optimism, and hope that one of his wrecks does turn out to be a Cortes ship, so I can help him realize the benefits from it.

Mariner

I concur wholeheartedly. We're cheering for you, Peg!
Blacksheep, if you don't like Peg's posts, fine. But your namecalling takes it a bit too far.

 

[Peg Leg]

Morning every one,
I know that my post piss a few people off but I am just asking question to better understsand how to approch the recovery of the Ghost Ship.
Most on this forum are Professionals but there are a few WANABEES that could not find Gold at Ft. Knox and we know who they are.
I spent more time answering NEGATIVE comments that mean little or nothing connected to the recovery process but that is part of the game (I guess?).
Untill I recover something I have really no idea if this ship is one of Cortes ships, a pirate ship, Spainish ship or what or who owns this ship.
I will keep asking questions until I know who the owners are or who claims to be the owners.
Peg Leg

 

[Peg Leg]

Mariner after all the stories Peg Leg wrote about his ghost ship do you still value his information ? His story changed so many times . About visibility , debth , seeing cannon etc etc . Besides who is going to prove that this socalled ghost ship is a ship from Cortes ? What were the names of the ships of Cortes anyhow ? Do you have a cargo manifest of these ships ? Do you think their names are still paited on the bow ? Man I thought you were smarter than that . This I do not write to cut you down or insult you in any way . The whole story just makes me smile a little in disbeleave . Cornelius

Please explain where my story has changed concerning this Ghost Ship?
Thanks
Peg leg

 

[cooper42]

I'm terribly sorry to hear of Peg Leg's passing. He will be missed by all.

Mariner, I am the sole source of Don's info on the so-called "ghost ship". Unfortunately, Don was often OVER the TOP in his posts and consequently subject to ridicule and scorn on this site. Since he often elaborated on his stories, some accused him of changing and creating fanciful details. Most of what he said was accurate, if not convoluted. Yes, he jumped to conclusions, but the core facts of the case remain, even if those facts were often misread by some.

If you want some of those straight facts, feel free to contact me and I can fill you in. My father found the artifact to which you refer around 40 years ago, and I gave Don the coordinates of the site over a year and a half ago. I'll contact his wife soon to get an update on Don's efforts, and perhaps we could proceed in some fashion, albeit a little more privately...

Jonathan

 

[Lobster Pirate]

I dont post much on this site and just recently became a charter member. I could not help but to add these pictures to this discussion.

Large Ais indian winter camp with large fresh water supply located on the barrier island.

LP

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I'm terribly sorry to hear of Peg Leg's passing. He will be missed by all.

Im sorry to hear this.

 

[aquanut]

Jonathan,
I PM'd you on this... Let me know if you got it.
Aquanut