Which Are the Most Credible Lost/Hidden Gold Sites?

[Springfield]

G'morning: For those that do not know what a flash flood is, here is one that swept through our Town about 01:00 in the mornig ...

My buddy was living in Alamos when that happened - wasn't it about 5-6 years ago? Same thing happened in Vernazza, Italy, in 2011. I saw the damage there in 2012 - incredible. These weren't campers - they were townsfolk. 500-year frequency rain events, they figured.

 

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[Springfield]

Along those lines, I wonder why, with a lot of this treasure legend stuff, nobody points to much corroborating evidence stemming from Native American historical accounts. I really only know Colorado stuff well, aside from the biggies like LDM, Victorio, etc., that we all have read about, but I am sure most places have real similar tales.

We have Frenchmen being chased down and killed by Native Americans leaving buried gold, Spanish, Americans, etc. We have enormous supposed caches of gold, etc., being moved around.

Theses encounters, battles with 'white men' a few hundred years ago were remarkable - worthy of future remarks. These would be braves that would no doubt be remembered, stories passed down from generation to generation. Now, although if this type of accurate record exists in that culture, I don't expect access to it, but there should be some very, very wealthy American Indians somewhere, no? All of these KGC type guys running around their home, doing things suspicious in nature. Although gold was useless to the Ute of the 1500-1800's, that isn't the case anymore ...

Maybe these legends in the treasure magazines didn't happen back then.

["Spanish bullion pack train ambushed by Indians. With arrows flyin', the Spanish take time to bury the loot. All killed except one survivor. Never could find the loot again."]

Here's another one. ["Spanish mining expedition stack up tons of bullion. They return to Mexico. They leave the gold in Arizona. They never get around to going back for the gold."]

Yes, the French were busy in southern Colorado doing the same stuff. Capable enough to accumulate tons of gold, but not to remove it or return for it?

 

[ECS]

Maybe these legends in the treasure magazines didn't happen back then.

["Spanish bullion pack train ambushed by Indians. With arrows flyin', the Spanish take time to bury the loot. All killed except one survivor. Never could find the loot again."]...

Stories in treasure mags are written to sell the treasure mags.As with so many Confederate gold stories from the treasure mags,there is always a chase,a fight,sometimes a survivor who could never find the gold again.It does seem like the treasure writers follow an outline for good treasure tales.

 

[lastleg]

Nobody Know de trubel I seen.

 

[Springfield]

Let's start over, or reset, or get back on track, or whatever.

• Which Are the Most Credible Lost/Hidden Gold Sites?

IMO, if one's ambition is to actually recover a cache of valuables, you must face the reality of the task: unless you possess proprietary information regarding an alleged cache, your chances are, essentially, zero. However, let's say for the sake of argument, you have come into possession of, say, a private journal that specifies a secret location of stashed goods, written by the stasher himself. Maybe the journal was in a box of old books you bought at an estate sale. Now let's assume you believe that 1) the journal is bona fide, and 2) somehow, nobody else has yet tried to exploit the information. Now, unexpectedly, you may indeed have a project on your hands. This may be a 'credible' opportunity for you. A bolt out of the blue. Like the gnostics say, "You don't choose god; god chooses you."

What about all the stories we've read about dealing with lost mines and buried treasure? IMO, most are total fabrications designed to feed the appetite of consumers of treasure magazines and internet web sites. However, some are likely based on some form of past reality, have been so seriously jimmied as to provide only a ghost version of their real facts. Like UFO's, 911 and Bigfoot, "Something is happening but we don't know what it is, do we, Mr. Jones?"

I believe the fact-based legends are worth looking at, but you have to realize that the more public exposure these things have had, the more disinformative they are. Many are nothing more than coded messages, IMO, intended for those 'in the know'. These generally follow well-used formats which we're all familiar with and have been discussed earlier. An extraordinary number of these tales seem to have come to light in the 1930's. That's likely a message in itself.

Which are 'credible'? Well, maybe many of them, but probably in ways unrelated to the 'facts' published in the public domain, but unavailable to you. You don't really believe you're going to locate the Lost Dutchman's mine do you, if there is such a thing? Yes, it's fun to think about, to 'research' and talk about. And exciting to hike the Superstitions, 'following Waltz'. Same goes for the 'Lost Adams', 'LUE', '17 Tons', 'Treasure Mountain', Victorio Peak', et al. Too much time has past, too many embellishments have been added, too many lies have been told, too little verifiable facts exist, too many people closer to the time period have been 'there, done that'.

What about the 'truths' that spawned all these legends? Go back to the earliest versions available and read between the lines. Tough business. Maybe the stars will line up for you and send you off in the right direction. Don't expect to read about the vital secrets somewhere.

Enough blah-blah. To answer the original question: my choice of the most credible treasure site is the Cibola legend. Whether the site(s) has been found or not, my working model is that something(s) real exists in the American Southwest that spawned the version of the legend we're familiar with. Maybe the other legends listed above are also somehow related. Quien sabe?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Regarding very rich Indians, first we must have some strong hot coffee. I spent over 5 years living with the Yaqui' learning their customs, beliefs, and participating in their life - actually sneakily looking for metals that they had accumulated over the centuries with their raids and the covered up mines that were worked in their lands..

First it was very frustrating to have a family know of a family treasure which they wouldn't touch since it was handed down to them as a rather sacred trust for the oldest to hold in confidence, yet quite eagerly willing to go look for another's. The tribe itself does not have any treasures, only individual families.

I eventually found 4 closed mines of either Gold or Silver, but again I cannot act upon them. Al metals in the ground belong to the Gov't so to work a mine in Yaqui lands one must secure the permission of the Mex Gov't, then the local chief (governor) then the tribal governors (7) together. They 'never' are in accordance.

So until the older Governors die off, there will be no cooperation. With this in mind, I have heavily encouraged them to send their brighter ones off to college to specialize in medicine, 'LAW' etc. It has paid off since they are now taking a strong lead in their affairs.

However the present attitude is that treasures are just a wild story because if they existed why hasn't ole grandpa recovered ours? so as the older ones die off, so do the stories - but I have recorded many of them snicker.

One in particular is fantastic. It has to do with the end of the French occupation of Mexico. As the last of the resistance was taking place they commenced to send all values to the various ports for embarkation to France. One of these huge mule trains was intercepted by about 100 Yaqui and after the ambush, in which all of the French and mule drivers were killed, it was put into a cave in a slide area, where the rubble covers the entrance. I have the key, but snifff.. Long story here.

I want two of those French lances for my fireplace.

No, there are many reasons why various Indians may hold this data, yet have never touched them in the past. Now that the young ones know better ,it is almost too late, since the holders of the intimate details are gone, or going fast.

Shaddup, I'll be around for another 60 years for my 150 th birthday. so

Incidentally, one of those sites is basically a Gold Chloride deposit.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

Just another Dutchman named JW hanging around Phoenix.

I don't know. All I do know (have chosen to believe at this point), is that something is going on. Things like the LDM, LUE, Vicky peak, KGC, etc. are connected. I see german stuff all over the place with those stories. Now we have a story, that makes no sense, about german activity in the SouthWest. And a story that begins at The Sea of Cortez and should end at the Hoover Dam, but must swing by Phoenix to include a Dutchman named JW, as well as an important survey meridian that just so happens to be 33.

Springfield, why does this ludicrous tale of subs blowing up Hoover include such? Why complicate it? Is this yet another message, wrapped up in a story?...

Yeah, it's puzzling - like watching a Chinese version of Jeopardy.

33 degrees. Now you're on to something. Victorio Peak, NM 32°55'26"; Caballo Mtn, NM 32°56'37"; Black Peak, NM 32°54'24"; Big LUE Mtn, NM/AZ 33°04'24", Adamsville, AZ 33°00'46"; Carlisle Mine, NM 32°51'11". All sites linked to treasure legends. There's been a significant presence of thought relating to placements of old and new world structures on nodes that follow patterns, including latitude. Latitude is a measurement that has been known for millennia and is easy to determine worldwide. You can place a celestial navigator (or a Boy Scout for that matter) anywhere on earth and he'll be able to determine the latitude very quickly and even with simple tools, respectfully accurately.

Oh ... why the Carlisle Mine? It's a KGC thing. There are unproven but anecdotal allegations of Jesse James spending time in that mining district years after his funeral in MO. And, it was a place Herbert Hoover spent time as a mining engineer after Stanford University and before his rise to power. 'Hoover' - namesake of the dam. Alleged KGC site. Name associations are critical to coded messages - maybe the sub plot story is one.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Springfield, mi amigo. Coffee? You are correct, Latitude is fairly easy to calculate, Long is a different matter. Unless you have an accurate time piece, conventional navigation is useless, however you can stay in the ball park with noon shots for basic calibration.

Course you can simplify it by carrying a Celesticomp V" hand calculator etc, or even simpler yet, a very cheap GPS.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'afternoon coffee first. No-body. First let me clarify something, which you seem to have forgotten, or to bypass. I have mentioned that I have never spent one minute on the miniature sub thingie, which, contrary to your assertions, - 'was - is' ' - Feasible - practical is another matter..

As for problems in launching it from above the dam, may I remind you of the many present fishing camps etc that are from the immediate vicinity of the Dam, to far up stream. This indicates just how many launching sites were available then.

I am not unacquainted with the area since I was offered the mail franchise in the early 50's along with a Republic SeaBee, amphibious aircraft. (my present Commercial pilot's lic is #1087851, single & multi engine Land and sea, high performance ) feel free to check on it.

I was supposedly to deliver the US mail and fill out my living with deliveries of customers, booze, food, etc to the new fishing camps that were springing up. I turned it down to go to Mexico on what turned out to be the successful search for the lost legendary mine of the Jesuits, Tayopa.

In any event, the franchise turned out to be a gold mine in itself for someone else.
##############

You posted -> Even a slight current would make docking a sub on river shore, with no dock, so that people can get out and our rUbe-Boat disassembled a real mess.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Somehow the various fishing camps, both private and public seem to have mastered this problem and also house boats launch, anchor, and maneuver in close vicinity to the dam's floating barriers.

Remember, this sub probably wouldn't be much larger than one of the pontoons for a large house boat.
########################

You also posted -->This is an absolute logistics nightmare/impossibility. The coordination involved of shore and ground crew would have to be very well trained
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why? How much is involved in towing a large house boat to the Lake?
###########

You also posted-->l I can't get past the nonesensical concept of it all - steaming a diesel sub of 1940's technology with 1940's speed and power and manuverability up the Colorado
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You seem to be stuck in this, no one mentions going up the river, except for a few wild stories. It was to be trucked to it's launching site,and since it possibly wasn't much larger than one of a large pontoon boats pontoons it certainly wouldn't attract an undue interest.

As for a fully qualified sub commander to run it, i sincerely doubt this, it probably was designed to run just below the surface with surface breathing ability, just an extremely low profile. Anyone of normal intelligence could easily do this.

As a matter of fact this tech is now being used to smuggle narcotics along the central American coasts. Most are now constructed of fibreglass.

May I suggest that you go to my posts #74, & most importantly, #76

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Evening again: I can go on for a long time on German plots based in Sonora, mostly from here in Alamos. They constructed a high Marconi style Radio transmission tower here and it was successfully used in both WW-1 & WW-2.

In both WW's they sent daily data on ship movements in both the Atlantic and Pacific.

It was finally dismantled for scrap in the late 50's.

I have very interesting stories from both periods of similar plans on sabotage, some feasable, but impractical, others quite practical.

I also know, more or less, were a small steam driven ship carrying small chocolate sized gold bars to be used to bribe the Mexican gov't ended up. Part of the Zimmerman fiasco.

Incidentally, a German Naval prisoner of war camp was at Manzanillo.



Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

Lots of questions here. Let's go:

So, are we to assume that you believe, at this point, that any German activity in the SouthWest in and around WWII was due to one of the three things you listed? Namely wartime sabotage, German apparatus essentially laundering money or American G.I.s coming back with rucksacks full of valuables, to bury in the desert. To start with number three, using that logic, every state should have these caches of loot from G.I. Joe, not just the Southwest - I am not real accepting of reason #3 being the culprit behind German ties to things in the SouthWest, nor do I narrow it down to only two other possibilities. But, that is obviously just me, working an opinion and model to try to get to the next stage.

EDIT: I wanted to add that I would suggest that any schemes that we have been made aware of are not moot, especially concerning subs over here and if that story was a cover story. Perhaps a #1 went badly, for one reason or another, and a quick cover story had to be fabricated, in order to not foil a much larger plan. Take your pick, a larger plan to continue to ship valuables over here to hide/launder or a plan that diverts from the 'ol Au ...

I'm not nearly as focused on the German connection, so I don't have much to add. Concerning the three points, 1) Other than as interesting wartime anecdotes, I'm ambivalent about German sabotage plans in the US. I'm sure they were plotting things - it was wartime. If so, could there be a 'treasure connection'? Anything's possible, but this idea isn't even supported by any rumors that I've heard, except here.

2) This is a bit more promising. As WWII was winding down, many high Nazis wanted out of Europe and needed money. Although most of the action seemed to be towards South America, the Nazis had a history of big time US connections (bankers, politicians). So, I suppose it's feasible the Germans' US pals arranged for caches here. However, the two German-related treasure legends I've heard about (LUE and Four Corners) seem to have been born on the internet, so ... ?

3) I wasn't referring to GI's who brought back bayonets and a pocketful of deutchmarks, but the high brass who looted Europe and had the means of getting the goods back home for themselves and their political cronies. Again, most of the stories that relate these activities are internet speculations, so ... ?

As far as Germans are concerned in regard to US treasure legends, I'd have to accept an earlier premise of yours - it's the family connection, not the national one.

I guess the last question I hope you respond to is whether or not you think the release of stories in the 1930s and the Cibola legend related?

Yes, my current working model is that all are intertwined.

Did I read in a post somewhere that you had a friend that was a very accomplished dowser?

I don't expect to know exactly your lines of research, what you are interested in, if you are trying to solve the puzzle of why markers may have been either created or destroyed to protect something, if you give any credence to the KGC (or something like that operating that included the likes of Jesse James or others), but as far as my Reynolds reference and New Mexico, the name you might be familiar with would be Will Wallace that he used in NM, when doing his thing around Taos/Santa Fe.

I knew two individuals over the years who could produce reliable results. Both are deceased.

New Mexico Confidential: 30 Years of Snooping in Obscure Places: Stephen D Clark: 9781481062961: Amazon.com: Books

I need to educate myself better on Reynolds/Wallace. Thanks for the info.

... It is not gold I seek (but if I find some it is going in my pocket), it is TRUTH. Fun is just not something I equate to something so serious and profound. This is a mission, not a past time or hobby.

This is my life's work, with eventual success neither guaranteed nor expected...

If you hold on to that attitude, you can't lose because even your mistakes will move you forward.

 

[Springfield]

If I still lived in CO, I'd probably research the Reynolds gang story a little deeper, but I found enough through Google links to get me pretty well up to speed.

[OT: Nobody, did you ever run a snow cat for a living in CO?]

A decent summary of the story is the following thread I found on a Conifer, CO board:
Pinecam.com ? View topic - Maggie Crow, Stagecoach dirver- information wanted

There's enough here to begin genealogy/newspaper research. I'm not going to delve too deeply (it's a bit too far out of my sphere of interest), but my first impressions are: 1) There's a widespread belief that there was a Reynolds gang active in CO in the 1860's; 2) Lots of folks believed the gang buried paper money and placer gold.

Where the loot was buried. Gang members captured and/or dying spilled the beans. Suspicious. I've always wondered if I was an outlaw who buried money somewhere if I'd tell the truth about where it was - probably not.

An old guy named Crow provided lots of specific details about the cache site he learned as a youth and claimed to have found them all (corral, knife in tree, etc), but not the loot. Suspicious. He might have been looking for attention.

Will Wallace. The mention of this alias in Santa Fe/Taos seems to have originated in Cook's memoirs. The name choice is noteworthy - one thinks of the Scottish Knight William Wallace who allegedly had contact with the Knight's Templar. Might be a message here about the gang and the northern New Mexico area. Draws attention to Cook.

I'd try to run down the names of the Reynolds gang for interesting associations with others who supported the Southern cause - Cook too.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'morning my coffee drinking buddy, el Sr Nobody: I can give you an 'A' for logic and practicality, but not for feasibility.

WW-2 was awash with weird projects, such as-->

The US plan to release bats with incendiary devices clamped to their legs to be released over Japan - poor lil bats -

Japan's idea of sending balloons with timing devices and incendiary bombs via the prevailing northern pressure paths to start fires in cities and forests in the US.

Towing giant ice bergs from the Arctic regions to be used as unsinkable aircraft carriers.

Hitler's idea of invading Russia when all of his generals showed how it was impossible to win at that stage of developments. It was just too vast, and coupled with her scorched earth policy, made his supply lines too vulnerable and inefficient to maintain an active campaign. Feasible, but not practical .

There are hundreds of others, but they will do for examples. While ALL are feasible, none were practical.

That sub still lies just outside of Obregon, and until the Mexican gov't relaxes it's grip on marine archaeological exploration permits, it will stay there. While it is feasible, it is not practical with the present secretary's attitude on permits.

Now about that 80 ft aquatic serpent that I involuntarily swam with, capturing it alive would be worth ?? Interested ?

Nah, my Friend, on treasure / Adventure stories one can be too practical. but there goes the fun. I would never have lived off of the Jungle for 6 months looking for Mayan ruins if I had been practical and I would have missed part of my life's experiences, never regretted though.

Practically wise, I should never have looked for Tayopa since it had been looked for over 400 years by multitudes of others, without success, stilll.

Ah heck, let's go look for that lil ship full of the Zimmerman gold. Won't be able to keep it because of the present impossibility of securing permits, but still think of the fun and challenges, fame questionable, ego ++++++.

My friend, my message below says all for my attitude. Join me? may end up a millionaire, or flat arsed broke like me snicker.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Cavitation

 

[Springfield]

Cavitation

They say someday Glen Canyon Dam could fail completely. Tsk. Tsk.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

clearly some people only read what they wish to see...
glen canyon dam almost failed because of water, not explosives.
http://www.hcn.org/40years/blog/the-summer-the-dam-almost-didnt
"He concluded that as the massive dam shook and vibrated madly and tremendous rumblings echoed through its interior passages, the agency's rank and file "showed the right stuff" by keeping cool heads and using their knowledge and guts to operate the dam under such extreme conditions - something that was downplayed by high-ranking officials"

the dam was topped by water. plywood sheets attached to the top of the dam, held back the entire lake, opening the spillways undermined the dam...
loss of the dam would have sent Arizona and nevada back to pre 1930 population levels...
no submarine needed.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Have fun NoBody my friend, but before you go, have a nice hot cuppa coffee to warm you up. Hasta la Vista.friend, Vaya con Dios.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Army of 1]

Great story , had me salivating and dreaming .. cheers Mick

 

[Salvor6]

I heard the government confiscated that 82 pounds of gold?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Springfield: no coffee yet: The major flaw in that the amount of gold available is not the yearly production, but the accumulated gold over the years, which could easily have provided hat amount of Gold without too much attention.
.
One can assume that if th perpetrators were intelligent enough to accumulate that amount of cash, they most likely were capable of carrying out the rest of the plan

Don Jose de La Mancha