Whipped Before I Start . ..

[Trapper John]

I know there are plenty of "discouraged" threads hereabouts, but there is a lot to be said for the value of catharsis. So, here's my story.

First off, as is my custom I did mega-research before deciding to enter this hobby. Certainly equipment and technique needed to be checked out, and I had to decide what I needed and where I wanted to use it. I'll deal with the "where" part first.

I started off with these as my base assumptions: First, every square foot of the North American continent - and probably the entire planet - is owned by somebody. Secondly, everyone who owns square foot or more of land is afraid of: a. being victimized in any one or combination of ways; b. getting sued; c. having their rhats violated. Finally, it is my assumption - no, my fervent belief - that for every person who tries to be respectful of their surroundings and other people there are approximately 763,598 complete idiots who think their rhats trump those of everyone else.

Based upon these assumptions I fully expect that wherever I go, and no matter what I try to do there, someone is going to tell me I can't do it. That includes building a structure having more than 100 square feet of space, in my own back yard. I should also point out that I do not buy into the proposition that it is better to ask for forgiveness than permission. This notion once made sense until everyone began carrying guns and hiring lawyers.

So let me cut to the chase. The city says I can't detect on city property, the county says I can detect in county parks - maybe - the state says yes in some parks, no in most, and definitely not where anyone has set foot prior to my presence, ever. The BLM says pretty much okay, the Forest Service says yes and no, the Fish and Wildlife people say it's okay to detect, but not to dig. What this means is that I can use my metal detector in one of several metal detector shops in the entire state of Oregon - but only in their test beds, in the presence of three witnesses, and after presentation of a legitimate photo id.

That brings me to the "what I need" part. Safe to say that after performing my due diligence I decided to order a Garrett AT Pro from a prominent online vendor with an Irish surname for a company title. I ordered. Then the fun began. They said my Playpal order was screwed up and please cancel my order and resubmit. PP said my order was just fine. The sales guy argued with me, I got mad, and cancelled my order. (That's the short version; this post is already too long.)

So, I have no equipment, no place to detect, and I am very discouraged. I think I am going to become either a pirate or a highwayman. The heck with searching for treasure. I'll just take it. Besides, who's going to pay any attention to a 66 year-old thief with an eye patch and a parrot on his shoulder?

 

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[signal]

Well, I hope you eventually get your machine and things work out. PATIENCE is key in this hobby. It can be frustrating if your impatient, but there is always something to learn, even when your just digging junk.

I would not overthink this hobby. I am not saying do anything stupid, but basically use common sense. There is no need to research every single dig anymore than you need to research where you walk. If there are no signs posted, and it would seem reasonable you should be able to detect, then go for it.

As for stores, well, the one you bought from you will hear good and bad things about. I personally have had many good experiences with them. You can always escalate your issue to some supervisor or something.

It's true there are tons of "rules" these days. I can't stand them. I hate HOA rules the most. Don't go by what the "City says" or the "county says".......if it was someone who in fact "said" it to you. Go by what is written as law. If you don't have the law, or they can't provide it, then don't worry about it. It takes a lot more work for someone you talk to, to figure out if its legal or not, so its easier for them to say "don't do that". Some municipalities have published laws, but many do not. Most of the time there are very vague and obscure laws which could be twisted to say "no metal detecting", things like no destruction of property, or no digging. I believe that if someone wanted to, they could find a law that shows just about everything is illegal!

Don't attract attention, be stealth like a ninja. Leave everything just as it was before you came and you will be fine. I really doubt anyone is going to take your equipment, handcuff you, etc, etc. The worst that is likely to happen is someone will tell you to stop detecting, where you simply engage them in polite respectful conversation and try to uncover basic things like if they are the proper authority and if there is in fact an ordinance that applies. As with most things, you should pick your battles and be non-comfrontational, Oregon is a huge place, plenty of "other" places to go play if someone doesn't want you in there sandbox.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

John , you are way over thinking this. For example , when it comes to "city" ( your particular city), where did get that md'ing city parks was not allowed ? If it was that you asked someone "can I?", then no, what signal is telling you is correct: You look it up for yourself. If it doesn't say " no metal detecting", then presto : It's not disallowed .

You can certainly look long-&-hard at minutia in the various entities you cite . And sure : you can eventually find something , or someone there to say you can't skip stones on the pond . Might poke someone's eye out , or interfere with migrating birds , etc...

Just stay clear of obvious sensitive historic monuments , archies at national monuments , etc... Other than that , you're worrying yourself too much.

 

[l.cutler]

Lots of good detector dealers on here too, if you had a bad experience with one, forget them and try another. Check the reviews on dealers on this site and you won't go wrong.

 

[Diggin-N-Dumps]

Forget detecting....do you have a green thumb?

 

[pat-tekker-cat]

Welcome to treasurenet and the insanity!

TominCa, is one of the most knowledgeable members, on the "asking permission", I know of here.
If you lived somewhere like I do, the "where" would be a "no brainer".
As for maneuvering your way around jerks, throughout life, I think you're probably old enough and seasoned enough.... forget the jerks and move on....... MOST in the MD community are some of the most upstanding and real folks, I have ever met(online and/or in person).

Oh, and being it's winter(for you and 7/8's of the nation), we also have an Armchair Detectorist sub-forum, further down the screen, AND, perhaps, check out "your state" on down below that(as vpnavy is so kind to always advise new members about). You may be able to connect with some others(when ya'll thaw out), for some real fun times!
I sometimes suggest to folks who can't detect in frozen weather, perhaps coin roll hunting, in winter. Still treasure hunting...... I been doing it(on & off) for over 40 yrs now.

Good luck to you, and thank you for such an enjoyable read, things will look up for you, I am sure.
The treasure is where you find it.

 

[Clay Diggins]

There are 16 million acres of public lands in Oregon and you can't find anywhere to detect?

Go to Land Matters website - find the Oregon Mining Claims map.

Turn on the Land Status layer and the Mining Claims layer. Avoid the mining claims - you should still have more than 15 million acres to detect.

 

[releventchair]

Trapper John: Great post. I chuckle from having been near your view.
Stealing pull tabs not worth it. Really.
One aspect you did not touch on is the value of networking. Sharpen up those people skills , kind of a non pirate approach and let people know of your hobby.
Once common questions and answers become second nature multiple sites will turn up. You do business somewhere with history and a grassy or rough strip around it ask if you can swing your detector over it. Sure you will get a no sometimes. Also be prepared to explain what you are after and what it involves. Not digging up pipes and electrical runs and leaving site like you found it minus trash. Or if need be a showing and or sharing of finds.
You will create a reputation ;good or bad that affects future permissions and folks knowing you as a metal detector guy who can find some things.
No sign in a park ? try it and see what soil is like . If easy to repair recovery sites keep at it a while. Reasonably discreet and not looking guilty. Relax..but be aware of what is going on around you too. My local park most people are used to me. Those who maintain it included. I'm just detecting and hauling out junk when recovered. Maybe my plugs have been inspected after I leave but if so that's fine. Any loosened from a squirrel or dog get retamped if spotted next visit. Because I'm a good guy with an innocent hobby.

Get a detector, learn it well and have at it. Most everyone has lost something. Most have a vague idea where. That has led to leads in just casual conversation. Some folks even put out notices wanting a detectorist.
Ask people who talk to you about hunting or farming if they see any old homesites or ruins of them. Asking a farmer or landowner at the right time and presenting yourself as respectful of history and their property can go far. A no does not end your hobby.
Ever had a girl say no to a date? Did you never ask again?
Keep notes and be ready to take notes when someone mentions a potential item or location. "There is always a place;somewhere". Keeping that attitude will locate multiple sites.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Clay-diggins : 16 million acres of public land in Oregon , eh ? Well on every speck , @ every type entity , I'm sure you/I could find something or someone that can be interpreted to be a "no".

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Yet there's no shortage of guys detecting there on (gasp), public land . So what does that tell you ? It means that sometimes in this hobby we need to apply the " does anyone really care?" test , & stop worrying.

 

[Trapper John]

Thanks, All Who Have Replied So Far . . .

t was good to see how many of you took the time to compose thoughtful and constructive replies to my original post - even the somewhat snarky ones. Each in their own way offered advice and encouragement to a newbie. Thanks!

Actually, the whole piece was intended to be tongue-in-cheek, as I was trying to encapsulate the various laments and frustrations that I have encountered throughout this entire thread. I guess my point was that it doesn't take long at all before one encounters obstacles in the hobby; one cannot just dive in and start swinging before realizing that this is not necessarily a "walk in the park," to coin a phrase. (Wow. A double pun. I must be on a roll. Of coins. Aw, forget it.)

In any case I think I have found a few folks with whom it will be fun to exchange remarks and observations. For that I am most grateful. I hope to share many tales of my experiences and adventures as I learn more about the fascinating world that is just below the surface.

 

[pat-tekker-cat]

Hey, Thank YOU a lot, too TJ, (Ooohhh, my Papaw, was a TJ, Papaw TJ, lol)

I guess my point was that it doesn't take long at all before one encounters obstacles in the hobby.

Dear, it usually only takes the "first breath", for many to start encountering obstacles, in life!
It's not the problems that define us, it's how we overcome them. Always attempting to be and do right, and not be in error.
Sometimes, we can be our own worst enemy. That's why it's good to have friends, to help lift us out of it. Hard for one hand, to wash itself.

What was that poem, I shared my troubles and they were halved.....
I shared my joys, and they were doubled......


Peace

You write hilariously, btw. You gonna fit right in! LOL! Thanks again, too.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Clay-diggins : 16 million acres of public land in Oregon , eh ? Well on every speck , @ every type entity , I'm sure you/I could find something or someone that can be interpreted to be a "no".

Thanks for that Tom. I now have a grasp of your misunderstandings about where you can prospect.

"Public Lands" has a specific meaning in law. Your city park may be open to the public but it most certainly isn't public land. Neither is the courthouse or the fairgrounds. Those lands are owned by municipalities and are designated by them for specific public purposes. Generally those municipal lands are acquired with financing by the system of municipal bonds backed by the municipal corporations authority to tax real estate found within their bounds. Look to the bond issue to understand the purpose that land was purchased for.

If you have any doubts about this feel free to look up "municipal corporations" in the California statutes and Constitution. Just looking won't cause anyone to say "no" and you might just learn some valuable information for you efforts to keep detecting open in your municipality.

Public lands in the United States are managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and the Forest Service. These lands were purchased or won by our forefathers with their labor and their blood. All public lands are created by treaty. The totality of public land in the United States is known as the National System of Public Lands. By law those public lands are open to the public 24/7 unless specifically withdrawn by an Act of Congress or under the temporary authority of the Secretary of the Interior, The Secretary of Agriculture or by segregation under the mining acts.

The more you refuse to look at the legal basis for your right to detect the more opportunities you miss. In your own State of California there are more than 15 million acres in the National System of Public Lands. At least 7 million of those acres are open to you and your detector. It's not as if you have nowhere to go when you get booted from the local tot lot.

Folks back East have no public lands and are at the mercy of their local and state ordinances as well as the local busybodies and uneducated law enforcement. They have a lot of good places they wish they could detect and not so many places they can detect. Back east a good personality and honest clean appearance can go a long way to getting permission to hunt private lands or in convincing local authorities to change any laws or attitudes to detecting municipal or state properties.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

C-diggins , interesting post. I don't doubt what you're saying. There on may in fact be on semantical differences on those various forms of land. But the bottom line is, city parks , courthouse lawns, fairgrounds, etc.... do generally get lumped into a category known as "public". If you're saying that word is only for BLM , fine . Whatever . But I'm going by the commoner's usage of the word.

But restricting the conversation to just BLM , you still have a problem: There are still rules and laws that "govern the use ". So for example , you can't start a pot growing operation there . So while md'ing may have an express allowance there , I bet that you're restricted to coins less than 50 years old (if you asked long enough and hard enough of enough archies ).

Moral of the story ? Don't ask govt. archies silly questions .

 

[cudamark]

Or even thoughtful ones......you may not like the answer either way.

 

[Clay Diggins]

I wasn't suggesting you couldn't detect those places you consider public. I was simply pointing out what you consider "public" might not be all the things you think public should be. Public lands are not the same thing as public property.

I agree with your thoughts on government archies but I didn't even suggest you ask one. This is about doing your own research not about asking someone else for their opinion - much less permission.

You might be able to eat a Big Mac, as Kemper suggested, or even detect (and dig targets) on the courthouse lawn. I can't know that anymore than you can if neither of us look it up. And just because you find you can eat a Big Mac on the Courthouse lawn it doesn't mean you can eat a Big Mac on the school playground while school is in session. Or at the senior center or on the lawn of the Police Station. What you consider "public" property has more restrictions than private property in many cases.

Pot growing? 50 years? Why not just read the law rather than raising non issues? They are the same for all those millions of acres of public lands. Heck I even gave you a link to a map so you could see where all those public lands are. It's so much easier to look it up rather than speculate. I for one would rather know where I stand than "detect at night".

I just pointed you to millions of acres open to detecting Tom. I thought you would already be out there detecting!

Keeper beepin!

 

[hbeaton]

This thread is similar to the one Tom started a little while ago about "a story worth repeating" in that the discussion quickly digressed into a basic question of whether or not to ask permission to detect in questionable or even non-questionable area(s). Makes my hard hurt a bit and it's not because I cannot readily follow the lines of argument but rather it circles back to the same themes, people draw lines of what they think is correct i.e. what constitutes "public", what morally is the right thing to do when it comes to detecting, etc. Folks like Kemper seem to have the opinion of don't mess with anyone in possible positions of authority until you are asked not to do something. To me basically that means detect wherever (unless its undoubtedly a place that is off limits) and try not to arouse any suspicion as doing so will put the whole area on notice of possibly getting restricted and then all the other detectorists lose. Now before you respond, I'm in agreement that if a place is already restricted then maybe we can make efforts to get it unrestricted by demonstrating all the positive merits of detecting and hopefully nullifying what if any negatives our hobby presents.

In the other thread, I took the opinion basically that I should not have to hide the fact that I want to detect and that getting tacit or express consent to do so should not be looked at is poking a hornets nest because its more than likely going to end badly but rather gain wider public acceptance for our hobby. That argument gets shot down by the simple phrase "well why do we need to have everyone love our hobby to begin with?". I'm not saying we do but those who have the authority to make it easier for us to enjoy the hobby with some actual legal backing rather just wait until we are told to stop and have to leave a place that we may not really have to is a little silly to me.

People mentioned there is probably a way to demonstrate legally that literally any action one takes or does not take in life is unlawful. That's sad but we're humans and we think we're smart, dangerous combo. A parting thought on this area of discussion is there are very few people even those in power that would look down on a group playing frisbee in a public park (that's essentially what a park is for right? activities like that? Vast majority of people familiar with going to the park would agree) but take the same scenario and insert person staying out of the way of said folks playing frisbee or even better there is no one else even utilizing the park at that time save the detectorist and if someone does happen along that is in a position of authority, people get told they cant do something when they probably can. Why is this? There probably is not a specific law banning frisbee at the park hence people exercise that right (or rhat?) but whether or not there is law specifically banning metal detecting, people have more of a negative stigma attached to the guy with headphones digging holes in our park...that stigma whether justified or not is carried by many whether they voice it or not. And you can say, "Come on Hunter! you're overthinking this way too much and quite frankly who cares what someone else thinks as long as its ok for me to be doing what im doing, i dont seek nor need their approval right?" Yep, you are right but again, that thought of most people looking down on what we do in a public area (not all mind you) I think is something that can be remedied by demonstrating that what we are doing quite frankly poses no threat nor harm nor lack of the pursuit of happiness that any other legal activity you see going on at a park poses. That is only demonstrated by showing the correct people and that carries with it what many deem unnecessary attention. Catch-22.

After reading this thread, it's not that I am "coming around" to Kempers opinion of just leaving it all alone until someone says something so as to not provoke unnecessary suspicion but it really can make more sense to just go to other areas where the likelihood of being stopped is mitigated to a level most are comfortable with. I feel like The Dude from the Big Lebowski listening to the "other" Lebowski drone on and just saying...Oh fudge it. (you can gather what was actually said)

That rug really tied the room together...man.

 

[Trapper John]

So I would like to summarize to this point by offering an axiom for everyone's consideration. I will call it Trapper John's First Law of Misapplied Authority and it reads as follows:

The propensity of a minor official to exercise discretionary power in an arbitrary and negative manner is directly proportional to the number of keys displayed on their key chain.

BTW my Garrett AT Pro order was replaced today.

 

[Trapper John]

To Kemper, to whom I must reply:

If a key chain is jangled in the forest and everyone is wearing head phones, does it still make a sound?

 

[Slingshot]

Get an inexpensive used detector which is still a reasonable machine, like a Tracker IV. Go detect questionable public property in broad daylight, be cordial to everyone as inevitably several people will approach you and be curious what you are doing, be sure and use proper recovery techniques. If you get busted by any authorities you will probably just be asked to cease your activity. If you get arrested by the police, you might loose your clunker machine and get a small fine at the worst. If everyone ignores you - the place is yours!!! Dig Baby dig!!! Then next trip take your good machine and begin the process of methodically cleaning it out.
A guy offered a Game Warden a ride in his boat to do some fishing. Once they were in the middle of the lake the guy took a hand grenade from his bait box, pulled the pin and threw it into the lake. The grenade sank and exploded, lots of dead fish rose to the surface. The Game Warden said "you are under arrest". The guy then pulled out another hand grenade, pulled the pin and handed it to the Game Warden and said "are you fishing or talking"?