1715 FLEET - WHAT DO WE KNOW?

[ivan salis]

TIME FOR ME TO UPDATE MY 1715 FLEET POSTS

what do we know? and what makes us think like we do?

a little Q & A

Q#1 - how many vessels where there in the 1715 fleet ?

A#1 -12 in the "combined fleet"-- 1 french vessel (griffon) and 11 spanish vessels ( 5 under Ubilla and 6 under Echeverz) being the senior officer Ubilla was in "overall command" of the fleet

what makes me say so? salmon who was second in command and was who took over after Ubilla's death in the 1715's fleet wrecking he was in charge of account for the fleet and salvage * he wrote to the king of spain accounting for the vessels he was "accountible for" in the letter he states --9 vessels are accounted for with 2 of the "gallones" missing -- (note Echeverz's fleet was called the "Gallones de terra firme") -- 9 + 2 = 11 plus its known that the french vessel was with them so 11 + 1 = 12


Q 2- roughly where are the 1715 fleet vessels?

A 2 -- according to records -the pilot of the 1715 fleet when being questioned in havana after the wrecking stated that 8 vessels were wrecked in what today is known as the mel fisher wrecksites - they are all 5 of Ubilla's fleet , both of the major treasure vessels of Echeverz and the dutch prize vessel known as "olandesa"

A 2 part b --3 of the vessels of Echeverz fleet ( #1 the french prize vessel known as "EL CIERVO " (THE STAG) "OFFICAL CARGO"- "dyewood" - #2 the "OFFICAL CARGO" tobacco hauling nao SAN MIGUEL ,#3 the nao CONCEPCION - MIXED CARGO / SOME TREASUE TYPE ITEMS as well as the french vessel "griffon" broke away from the 8 vessel main treasure fleet -- before the storm hit the fleet , taking a differant more northly course * -- the griffon b5roke away from the other vessels and was the only vessel to survive , she went to brest ,france *

of the 3 vessels of Echeverz fleet that went north * records report that 4 men from the vessel CONCEPCION were recovered on the cape canaveral beach area - they had been floating on a hatch cover for a couple days before washing ashore * due to this factor it is assumed that the CONCEPCION went down near the cape canaveral area. ( THIS VESSEL PLUS THE 8 KNOWN WRECKS DOWN SOUTH ARE WHAT SALMON IS SPEAKING OF WHEN HE SAYS 9 "ACCOUNTED FOR WITH 2 MISSING"

Of the two remaining MISSING vessels-- the SAN MIGUEL / EL CIERVO SALMON in his letter of sept 20 ,1715 to the king SAYS --THERE IS LITTLE DOUBT THEY BROKE UP IN DEEP WATER DUE TO THE FACT THAT THE WRECKAGE OF A LARGE VESSEL OR VESSELS WAS FOUND ON THE "NORTH SHORE" OF ST AUGUSTINE -- plus there is a 1728 map by a dutch map maker - that has the statement 'here are the remains of the silver fleet of the year 1715 * " on a map of florida near the st augustine area * (off shore a bit)

more later on

 

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[Hangingfor8]

Big Question...... Which sites are what ships?

 

[FISHEYE]

No one knows what wrecks are what till someone finds a artifact that was on a documented spanish manifest.Like the queens jewels for example.

 

[Hangingfor8]

John,
I just threw that out there to see what others thought. We all have our opinions on what is what, but it's nice to hear what others think and why.

 

[ivan salis]

the queens jewels were reportly manifested as being upon Ubilla' s capitana . there have been emeralds found on the 1715 fleet wreck site areas.

 

[island hopper]

the queens jewels were reportly manifested as being upon Ubilla' s capitana

What does reportedly mean? Either the jewels were listed on the manifest for Ubilla's ship or they were not listed. I assume there is a manifest for this ship. Were they listed or not?

Then you have the problem that none of the 1715 shipwrecks have been positively identified. So is Ubilla's ship, with or without the queen's jewels, at Sebastian, or down at Vero or maybe south of Ft Pierce inlet?

At this link, Ubilla's ship is called the Hampton Court. http://www.melfisher.com/SalvageOperations/1715Ops/1715history.asp

Other 1715 fleet sources list the Hampton Court as the ship at Rio Mar.

 

[ivan salis]

yes the capitana used by Ubilla was the former british vessel known as the hampton court * it was taken in battle with the french and later sold to the spanish -- being british built it has differant material in its make up --the differant type of wood used build her of could help indentify her from the other spanish built vessels .

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Originally the NUESTRA SEN0RA DEL CARMEN Y SAN ANTONIO was a British 3rd rate Ship of the Line named Hampton Court. She was ordered in April of 1677 and her 138ft long keel was laid later that year at Deptford shipyard.
The Hampton Court had a gundeck length of 149ft 6 inches and a breadth (beam) of 39ft 10 inches. Her massive hold was 17ft 2 inches deep drafting 18ft aft. Its massive burthen was 1,164 tons and she carried 70 cannon. In 1678 her broadside weight was 617 tons carrying 26 British Demi-Cannon on her lower gun deck, 26 British 12-pounders on her upper gun deck, 10 British sakers on her Quarterdeck, 4 British sakers on her Forecastle and 4 British 3-pounders on her Roundhouse.
John Shish the master shipbuilder had the Hampton Court completed and launched on July 10 1678 and Sir John Holmes captained her.

The Hampton Court as a British warship saw action in the battles of Beachy Head, Barfleur and La Hogue. In 1699 she was laid up in Portsmouth to have a rebuild that started in 1706. ** another sources dates a rebuild at Blackwall launched in 1701.** May 1 1707 present at the action off Brighthelmstone.

On May 1 1707 at the battle of Beachy Head part of the War of the Spanish Succession, 3 French ships, the Dauphine, Blackoal and Grifon grappled the HMS Hampton Court. The French crews boarded her killing her captain George Clements and took her for their prize.

In 1709 as Le Hampton Court was refitted as a 64-gun Third Rate ship of the line. On October 21 1711 re-took the Fourth Rate Ship of the Line Toulouse which had been captured by the British ship Sterling Castle off Minorca. Le Hampton Court was sold a year later at Dunkirk in 1708 to Spain where she becomes Nuestra Senora Del Carmen.

 

[Cappy Z.]

Is there any historical documentation of ANY ships being repaired in St. Augustine? I've read where south of St. Augustine there was a settlement that lumbered Live Oak trees to repair ocean vessels.

 

[ivan salis]

none of the large 1715 spanish vessels survived the storm ( a few tiny lifeboat type vessels were repaired and sent for help by the survivors one to st augustine - the other to havana) -- however the french vessel - griffon - which broke away from the main fleet about 1 1/2 to 2 days before the storm hit did survive -- she ran northward at first then fled due east going to brest ,france - by leaving the slow overloaded fleet vessels behind she avoided the storm as it hit the fleet and by later on turning due east at just the right time --- (as the storm ran northward up the coast towards s augustine *) she avoided the storm totally ---however the other 3 vessels of Echeverz fleet vessels that ran northward sank * - due to the records and maps i know of i believe the following --- the CONCEPCION near cape canaveral and one or both tf the 2 remaining "missing" vessels just a bit south of st augustine (close , but they did not quite make shelter - in st augustine )

st augustines main reason for existance was to protect the treasure fleets route & TO GIVE AID AND SHELTER TO THE TREASURE FLEET VESSELS THAT PASSED BY ,including the repair of damaged vessels as well as aiding in treasure recovery from wrecked vessels -- the spanish once it was figgered out that there was no gold or silver in "inland" florida only mean nasty indains who did not care for enslavement --basically "wrote off" developing florida's inland areas and stuck to the coastline areas of florida. although they did try the "mission method" of converting the indains with mixed results.

 

[Cappy Z.]

I guess what I am trying to get at... is that somewhere along the Treasure Coast there had to be the'top spot' when one needed to fix or repair a ship?

 

[ivan salis]

st augustine was the damaged vessel repair shop on the florida coast * ships were supposed to be "fit to sail" when they depatred havana , cuba on their return trip to spain - but many were in less than tip top shape often -- once hit by nasty storms , if they did not sink , but had damage they might pull into st augustine -- florida live oak is know to be some of the strongest wood around --it was used in the CONSTATUTION -- "OLD IRON SIDES" AS IT IS KNOWN FOR THE TOUGHESS OF ITS HULL

 

[Chagy]

Originally the NUESTRA SEN0RA DEL CARMEN Y SAN ANTONIO was a British 3rd rate Ship of the Line named Hampton Court. She was ordered in April of 1677 and her 138ft long keel was laid later that year at Deptford shipyard.
The Hampton Court had a gundeck length of 149ft 6 inches and a breadth (beam) of 39ft 10 inches. Her massive hold was 17ft 2 inches deep drafting 18ft aft. Its massive burthen was 1,164 tons and she carried 70 cannon. In 1678 her broadside weight was 617 tons carrying 26 British Demi-Cannon on her lower gun deck, 26 British 12-pounders on her upper gun deck, 10 British sakers on her Quarterdeck, 4 British sakers on her Forecastle and 4 British 3-pounders on her Roundhouse.
John Shish the master shipbuilder had the Hampton Court completed and launched on July 10 1678 and Sir John Holmes captained her.

The Hampton Court as a British warship saw action in the battles of Beachy Head, Barfleur and La Hogue. In 1699 she was laid up in Portsmouth to have a rebuild that started in 1706. ** another sources dates a rebuild at Blackwall launched in 1701.** May 1 1707 present at the action off Brighthelmstone.

On May 1 1707 at the battle of Beachy Head part of the War of the Spanish Succession, 3 French ships, the Dauphine, Blackoal and Grifon grappled the HMS Hampton Court. The French crews boarded her killing her captain George Clements and took her for their prize.

In 1709 as Le Hampton Court was refitted as a 64-gun Third Rate ship of the line. On October 21 1711 re-took the Fourth Rate Ship of the Line Toulouse which had been captured by the British ship Sterling Castle off Minorca. Le Hampton Court was sold a year later at Dunkirk in 1708 to Spain where she becomes Nuestra Senora Del Carmen.

Great post!!!!

 

[ivan salis]

being british built rather than spanish built -- I would think that the differant types of woods used in her construction as well as differant building methods would help make the "hampton court" IDible from the other spanish built vessels

 

[Diver_Down]

Cappy, the area around Pellicer Creek south of St. Augustine was known for it's live oak and timber industry. On Pellicer Creek was a known saw mill. The majority of land grants straddled Old King's Road. Unchecked logging decimated the live oak in the southern St. Johns and Flagler community. I've recently been researching some reported finds of cobs in the beach zone amongst the anastasia formations on the First Coast. You know from the area that one can pinpoint (somewhat) the possible coastal region. The anastasia formation (coquina) occurs throughout the East coast of Florida, but there are few areas where it protrudes on the beach face and into the surf. The northern most stretch starts at Marineland and continues south to the Hammock (Jungle Hut) area.

 

[Shawmen]

Ivan~
Excellent thread you've started here...kudos!
In reference to the St. Auggie theory on the additional missing vessels. Somewhere,either here or in my research literature, I read that no one in St. Augustine reported any bad weather at all locally at the time the Fleet would have met its fate, nor afterward. I also recall reading that crewmembers of the Grifon, after word had caught up with them regarding the loss of the fleet, also reported never encountering any bad weather after seperating from the Fleet. These two references would lead us to believe that the storm was a small/medium sized one on a more WNW track, or possibly even westerly oriented. We had some really great theories/tracks back on Cornelius' "The Wind" thread from a good time ago. As far as the Canaveral survivors, I would have to speculate the currents carried them that far north prior to rescue, and there vessels sank further south with the rest of the Fleet, albeit probably in deeper waters, hence being carried by the more pronounced Gulf Stream further out, which in turn carried them further north. I truly believe there's a honey hole scatter trail further out from the well mowed areas.

Just my two cents...
Once again, great thread Ivan...
Good Hunting to all...

 

[cornelis 816]

Shawman . I am glad you recalled my thread on .. The wind , the wind .. . It was well documented although very few people paid attention to it . I am glad you and I know better ! Cornelius

 

[cornelis 816]

What makes a good researcher ; First of all you have to sailed the oceans of this world ( as I did ) . You have to take local currents in consideration . You have to take local storms during the wrecking in consideration . You have to take local currents in consideration . ( think about ,, the Maravilla ,, . current going to the North while the wind was blowing to the South ) . When the wreck was blowing to the South ( when there was some sail still standing ) and when the wreck was sunk below the waves it was moved by the current to the North . . Just my stupid ideas ! Cornelius








rvillas ,,

 

[stevemc]

Cornelious, remember I mentioned this in your past posts about this, the Maravilla was scuttled in calm weather. She was purposely sunk. She broke off her rudder and could not steer. It was burned and they planned to come back to salvage it, but a later hurricane blew it all over. It was not in a storm when it sank. I have read several times when you said the winds were pushing it, it wrecked, etc, and that is not what the archives said.

 

[cornelis 816]

Stevemc . You better read the story of Padre Diego . This story can also be found in the book by Dave Horner (Ship wreck , chapter 5 - 6 ). This will change your opinion I think . . Cornelius