A couple of simple questions

[dk-diver]

In some posts theres been reference to distance unit called "league" - what is that in metric or nautical miles?

Does ayone know of any websites or books that can broaden my understanding of the evolution of ships. Im looking for a source of information that can help me indetify ship types based on rig type, hull etc.

Does anyone by chance have any informations about treasure wrecks in scandinavia?

Thanks for a most interesting and informative forum.

/dk-diver

Btw. let me know if anybody needs help regarding northen europe or scandinavian languages - Ill be honored to contribute

 

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[FISHEYE]

1 league (statute) = 3 miles (statute) = 4.823 032 km (exact)
1 mile (statute) = 1.609 344 km (exact) = 1,760 yards (exact) = 5,280 feet (exact)
1 mile (nautical) [International standard] = 1 mile (geographic) = 1.852 km (exact)
1 kilometer = 0.621 371 19 mile (statute) [derived]
1 kilometer = 0.539 956 80 mile (nautical) [derived]
---
1 square mile = 2.589 988 square km [derived]
1 square km = 0.386 102 159 square miles [derived]

 

[Mackaydon]

dk-Diver:


A great discussion list about underwater archaeology can be found at SUB-ARCH.

Listowner: Anita Cohen-Williams, CohWill Consulting

How To Subscribe: To subscribe, send email to listserv@ASU.EDU and in the body of the message, put "subscribe sub-arch your name"

Audience: Specifically for underwater professionals

SubArch Archives:
At Arizona State University, grouped by month and sorted by thread. You can also search the archives, join, leave or change your settings for the list.
All the best,
Don.....

 

[FISHEYE]

Our enemies are there at SUB-ARCH,what a bunch of bozo's they on that forum,make me wonder how any of them ever became archies,plus thier log in interface sux bigtime,never works i gave up on that one.

 

[modrian]

Easy now, they not "our" enemies per se, but people on the same path(study, identification, salvage) that are going about it in a different manner. While I'm in the middle- I feel that we should make an effort to document these wrecks and our finds, I do not agree with the strict and idiotic salvage laws that we currently have(think Spain's claim on all wrecks). It is possible to do both, such as what Odyssey did with the S.S. Republic. They are a good resource for research and contacts- I just wish there were more lit serv's like them to look on. Another one that is rolling pretty good is UWEX's- they have a good post and cull through all the wreck/salvage/ocean news and e-mail them out too keep you up on what's going out there.

to subscribe go to: listserv@uwex.us

-modrian

 

[wreckdiver1715]

They have labeled us as modern day pirates, grave robbers and the destroyers of history. They believe that we do not have the capability or even the desire to engage in serious preservation of this history. They have attempted to re-define the term ?Treasure Hunter? into a couple of dirty words.
There motivation is not that different than ours. However, they continue to attempt to block all private salvagers from locating and recovering anything from these wrecks. To me this is as simple as Socialism versus Capitalism.
They would have this history sit and decay on the bottom, possibly being lost to the world forever. ?Don?t touch it until we elitist get our government grant?. The simple truth of the matter is that private salvage is much more successful at getting funding and conducting this type of research and recovery, and by the time they get a grant, those unscrupulous Treasure Hunters have completed the recovery and artifacts are in the preservation lab being prepared for public display. They hate that, and the only way to correct this misconception is to turn world opinion against the private sector. They sure sound like the enemy to me.

?Know your enemy, they know you?

Q

 

[Jimi D Pirate]

Wreckdiver, I agree with you 100%
"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"

 

[oldfart]

Modrian decries the Spanish claim to wrecks but what alternative is there? ?Every wreck is owned by someone, whether a government, a private shipowner or an insurance company.
In the case of Spanish ships most were regarded as Government owned, particularly their cargoes however the modern inheritors the current Spanish Govt has mostly been generous in the terms allowed to salvors and could under international law be seen as a usefull restraint to the depredations of States who attempt to claim ownership.
As for "being our enemies" no I would not say that but they are certainly in competition with us and tend to try and use unfair means to restrict that competition (State laws etc)
States should retreat from the scene whereever ownership can be established with some certainty (ie. indentification of cannon etc) and the question of salvage rights should then be left to the parties involved
.

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Interesting point although not entirely correct when it comes to shipwrecks, especially those in international waters. Not every shipwreck belongs to somebody under the law as you state. For example; many shipwrecks we are simply unable to determine ownership, or in some cases even the country of origin. Not every ship carried a bell with its name on it.
The UNESCO treaty is the problem that is causing so much confusion concerning wreck ownership, and much of that will ultimately have to go threw the courts to become resolved. Some corners believe that Spain can claim all the treasure recovered from the wrecks in Florida waters. The French are trying to usurp Michigan law, for a wreck discovered in the territorial waters of the State of Michigan believed to be the Griffin.
Under UNESCO, only Sovran vessels of a nation are covered (vessels that are a part of a nation?s Navy or under the employ of that Nation). So you have to ask yourself, should the French be able to tell the State of Michigan who can and can?t recover a shipwreck in Michigan waters? Or, can I expect to find the Spanish Navy patrolling off the coast of Florida to protect and recover there Treasure Fleets.
Personally, I am no longer hunting for five missing ships of the 1715 fleet, and have now turned my attention to hunting for Pirate ships that only flew the flag of the Jolly Roger.

Q

 

[mariner]

I think the defining document for Spanish ships in US waters these days is the 1902 Treaty of Friendship between the US and Spain, rather than the Abandoned Shipwrecks Act. Articles X and XI deal with shipwrecks, and offer to Spanish wrecks, "whether belonging to the State or to individuals, the same assistance and protection and the same immunities which would have been granted to its own vessels in similar circumstances." This Treaty was the main instrument used by the US Court of Appeals, 4th Circuit, in 2000 to determine that SeaHunt Inc. and the State of Virginia had no rights under the 1987 Abandoned Shipwrecks Act to the wrecks of the Juno and LaGalga, which the Court ruled as belonging to the Government of Spain. The Court decided that under the 1902 Treaty, for a Spanish wreck to be "abandoned", it had to have been the subject of a specific expression or act of abandonment on the part of its owner, or their legal successors.

In 1999, President Clinton extended US waters from 12 nm to 24 nm by proclamation 7219, so any Spanish wrecks within 24 nm of the US coast belong not to the coastal state (eg Florida) but to the Spanish owner or their successors.

However, even though Spain stepped in and claimed full rights on the Juno and LaGalga, after SeaHunt provided details of their location when the State of Virginia gave them a permit to salvage the ships, that does not necessarily mean that Spain would not be willing to negotiate with somebody who found another of their treasure ships and wanted to salvage it. It just means that they would not have to accept an offer of salvage. I have no doubt that they would want any wreck to be properly examined, documented and excavated using appropriate archaeological techniques, but that is a good thing anyway.

My advice to anybody who might be able to locate any of the outstanding wrecks from the 1715 or any other Spanish fleet would be to contact the Spanish Embassy in Washington DC and ask them if they would be willing to make a deal on the recovery of the wreck. After all, that is exactly what Odyssey Marine did in the case of the Sussex, which is a British ship lying in Spanish waters.

I suspect that establishing the principle of ownership was more important to Spain than the question of whether any of their ships ever get recovered in the future.

I suspect that Spain would be even more willing to make a deal in the case of any Manila Galleons that could be found in US waters off the West Coast, or in international waters of the Pacific . There are still several unaccounted for. Although nearly all the Manila Galleons were State owned, they were not on strictly non-commercial activities, and were therefore not Sovereign vessels as defined by the International Convention on Salvage. Most of the cargoes on them were privately owned. Under the Convention, State ships not on non-commercial activities are not exempt from Salvage claims. I do not know if the 1902 Treaty would offer the same protection to Manila Galleons therefore as it does to the Atlantic Treasure fleets, if tested, and I suspect that the Spanish government would prefer not to test it.

Again, it would be a matter of whether Spain would be willing to make a deal.

As far as I know, nobody has ever asked Spain if she would do so. If I had the capability of finding one of the missing 1715 fleet, or a similar wreck I would go talk to Spain before I simply walked away from them.

Incidentally, if anybody knows the whereabouts in US waters of a wreck that belonged to Hernan Cortes or any of his descendents, come and talk to me. I have an arrangement with his present rightfull heir that would enable us to claim the protection of the 1902 Treaty and to legally recover the wreck.

I should add that I am not an attorney (thank God) and the above opinions are based on my own research of the legislation and of the various legal actions that have taken place.

Mariner

 

[FISHEYE]

mariner,
do you have a list of the ships that were owned by herman cortez? also what time period did he own ships?also a list of his ships that were lost and aprox location of them sinking.

 

[mariner]

FISHEYE,

I do not have a comprehensive list of ships owned and lost by Hernan Cortes, and it is difficult to compile one because many of them are not mentioned by name in the records.

Two of his ships, Santiago and Espiritu Santo, went missing in mid Pacific in December 1527 in the middle of the Pacific. They were part of an expedition led by Alvaro de Saavedra Ceron,and were supposedly headed from Mexico to the Moluccas. I have heard whispers that their wrecks have been found recently, and contained a lot of bronze cannons carrying dates of between 1522 and 1526. If anybody comes across any info about cannons carrying these dates, I would be interested to hear from them.

Also, one of his ships, which he sent out from Honduras, wrecked off the western tip of Cuba. Its wreck has also recently been found by one of the deep sea survey teams contracted by the Cuban government to find shipwrecks around the island.

Of course, there were the 13 ships that Cortes deliberately scuttled in Vera Cruz when he first invaded Mexico in 1519. These did not contain anything of value and would be almost impossibleto identify, even if they could be located but would be very important historically.

It is not clear what became of the Trinidad commanded by Francisco de Ulloa which explored the west coast of Baja California in 1539-40. For a long time, it was thought that Ulloa andthe Trinidad went missing somewhere north of the Island of Cedros, and a few years ago somebody claimed to have found the remains of some of its crew in the region of San Diego. There is some evidence that Ulloa got back to Mexico and from there went to Spain, but the evidence is a little nebulous, and I have not been able to find any subsequent mention of his ship.

Cortes started buying ships in 1519 as he prepared to invade Mexico, and then started building ships immediately he had finished the conuest. Several of his ships were lost in the region of the Gulf of Mexico/ the Caribbean. Mexico/Cuba/Honduras, but this is not well documented. I suspect that the Tumbaga wreck found on the Bahamas about ten years ago was a Cortes ship, which may have been on local duties oir headed for Spain. There may have also been other ships lost en route to Spain, but the records compiled by the Chanus for this period are sparse when it comes to the names of owners rather than captains. One ship carrying a lot of treasure was captured by French pirates on its way to Spain, in 1524 I think. I suspect that there will be more detailed in the Cortes estate records in Mexico City, but I have not checked these out yet.

Cortes died in 1547, but his descendents continued to build and operate ships. The so called emerald treasure wreck described in www.emeraldtreasure.com is almost certainly a Cortes family ship. It supposedly sank 12 miles off Cape Canaveral in 1757 while taking Cortes family treasures from Mexico to Spain, and is supposedly being looted by Archaeological Discovery Ventures of West Palm Beach. However, I do not know if this wreck really exists, or whether the location they report is true. The emeralds and jewelry they are selling over the Internet are real enough, but whether they actually came from this wreck, I do not know. I would be interested in hearing from anybody who has any information about whether or not this wreck is real.

Was your question prompted by simple curiosity, or do you have a lead on a possible Cortes wreck?

Mariner