a glimpse of the Tonto Forest/Tonto Basin late 1800s to early 1900s

[enigma]

a glimpse of the tonto forest/tonto basin late 1800's to early 1900's

in an earlier thread there was mention of a talk given by matt cavaness to the arizona cattlemans association in the early 1920s describing the cattle range in the superstitions when matt was first building up his ranch. i didnt have any luck finding that specific presentation but did come across one that might be of interest.

the attached link is to a paper written by a mr fred croxen who was a forest ranger on the tonto national forest in the early 1900s. he wrote a paper titled history of grazing on tonto that he then presented to the tonto grazing conference in phoenix november 4-5 1926. his talk starts between 1/3 and 1/2 the way down the page on the link provided.

http://www.foresthistory.org/ASPNET/Publications/region/3/early_days/1/sec8.htm

here are a few exerpts that give a good physical description of what the tonto basin and surrounding areas looked like in that time period if you dont want to read through the full description

...He tells of Blackfoot and Crowfoot Gramma grass that touched one's stirrups when riding through it, where no Gramma grass grows at present...

...Most of the old trees are gone, some have been cut for fuel, many others cut down for the cattle during drouths and the winters when the feed was scarce on the range, and many have washed away during the floods that have rushed down this stream nearly every year since the range started to deplete. The same condition applies to practically every stream of any size on the Tonto. The first real flood to come down Tonto Creek was in 1891 after it had rained steadily for 12 days and nights. At this time the country was fully stocked, the ground had been trampled hard, much of the grass was short, or gone, gullies had started and the water came rushing down. This flood took a good deal of the agricultural land from the ranches along the creek and was so high that it filled the gorge where it entered Salt River at the present site of the Roosevelt Dam and backed a house up Salt River about a mile...

...Curley Mesquite grass covered the foothills but did not extend to so low an elevation as at present, these lower elevations having been covered by grams and other grasses now gone...

...He says the Pine Bunch grass in the pine timber under the Rim was three feet high and stood in great bunches. The cattle and horses that grazed on it ate only the heads. Sheepmen first set fire to the Pine Bunch grass under the Rim when passing through, so they would have young tender feed for their sheep the next trip...

...the roots of the Pine grass are very close to the top of the ground, so it was soon killed out in this way. There is little of this grass to be found under the Rim at present. Revilo Fuller, a resident of the Pine settlement, first came to Tonto Basin in 1877. He says, "on Hardscrabble Mesa there was a red-topped grass that had a good head and grew to a height of about 16 inches. This was not a bunch grass but grew on stems, similar to Blue Stem." There is none of this grass to be found now. All the men interviewed state that there was little brush in the country at the time stock was first brought in, and it was possible to drive a wagon nearly anywhere one desired...

...The range was not only grazed out, but was trampled out as well. Moisture did not go down to the remaining grass roots and the cow trails were fast becoming gullies which drained the country like a tin roof. Sheet erosion started in many places, especially on the steep slopes and the thin soil was soon washed away and only rocks were left.

Cliff Griffin says that from 1894 to 1904, after the great herds of cattle had grazed over the Salt River country, there was no rooted grass, only browse and annuals remaining. And this was only 30 years after the first cattle had been placed on the range. Then from 1904 to 1910, the seasons were good, cattle not so plentiful, and the grasses started to come back and he says there is more grass on the slopes of Salt River now than there was from 1894 to 1904.

About 1890, a man named Ramer contracted 10,000 steers to be delivered in Holbrook at $15, $18, and $21. For the next 10 or 12 years the cattle business boomed. The drought of 1904, the worst since the coming of white men to these parts, at which time it failed to rain for 18 months, hit the range country; and cattle on the overstocked and depleted ranges died in bunches. Since that time there has never been nearly as many cattle as there was prior to that time — and there never will be...

although this isn't specifically a description of the superstitions or the area around the matt cavaness ranch, its likely that both areas reacted the same way to the conditions of the time.

for further reading if interested, there is a nice interview with fred croxen at the start of this link

http://www.foresthistory.org/ASPNET/Publications/region/3/early_days/1/sec9.htm

 

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[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

The attached link is to a paper written by a mr

Not to mention invisible?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

enigma,

Fred Croxen didn't get into Arizona until 1910. Most all his information on the early range came to him from the old ranchers like Matt Cavaness.
He was repeating things he had been told by them.

Matthew

 

[enigma]

enigma,
Fred Croxen didn't get into Arizona until 1910. Most all his information on the early range came to him from the old ranchers like Matt Cavaness.
He was repeating things he had been told by them.
Matthew

matthew

it wasn't represented as a first hand account. i said mr croxen was a forest ranger in the tonto national forest in the early 1900's and in the paper its clear that he uses stories from a multitude of men who worked in the area from the mid/later 1800's through the early 1900s. does it diminish his account because it's a secondhand account? i didnt think so, in fact the picture he paints is very much like the one which youve argued that cavaness wrote about.

if i had been able to find a copy of mr cavaness's written presentation i would have posted that as a great first hand account, but i wasnt able to locate it. this seemed like an excellent second hand source.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

matthew

it wasn't represented as a first hand account. i said mr croxen was a forest ranger in the tonto national forest in the early 1900's and in the paper its clear that he uses stories from a multitude of men who worked in the area from the mid/later 1800's through the early 1900s. does it diminish his account because it's a secondhand account? i didnt think so, in fact the picture he paints is very much like the one which youve argued that cavaness wrote about.

if i had been able to find a copy of mr cavaness's written presentation i would have posted that as a great first hand account, but i wasnt able to locate it. this seemed like an excellent second hand source.

enigma,





I didn't mean any disrespect or to diminish Mr. Croxen and what he wrote, only to point out that he was not an eye witness to the range like some of the pioneer ranchers were. Mr. Croxen does make the case for the early ranchers like Cavaness. It's hard for anyone to imagine the difference between the range before cattle and just a few years (5-10 years) after cattle were introduced to the Arizona mountains. Within 10 years the Superstition range was effectively destroyed by overgrazing. As many as 5,000 head of cattle and 1000 head of horses were on the Superstition range when the great drought of 1896 and 1897 struck. Jim Bark and all the ranchers cut down the last of the big trees in the canyons and along the creeks for food for the cows. Almost all the cattle on the range died.

When most people look at the Superstition mountains today they tend to believe they looked basically the same as when the first settlers arrived. Almost everything growing in the mountains today was not native.

The 1930 photo is a small plot of land (about 60 acres) south of the Superstitions looking toward what is now Queen Creek. The plot was the only remaining piece of original mountain desert that was not grazed by cattle or horses. On the right is what the entire range looked like when it was natural before grazing. On the left is what the desert and mountains became after grazing. The difference is dramatic, staggering ! Blue tip and gamma grass. alfiliria and bear grass on the right (all native), creosote, catclaw, scrub sage and many cactus not native to the range on the left. Nothing is left of the native plants, not a single blade of native grass on the left of the fence.

Matthew

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Good morning Matthew: Thank you for that picture. What a dramatic difference in the look of the range before and after the cattle. I purchased a copy of the 3 volume Forest Service publication containing Fred Coxen's story. Should make interesting reading. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Gregory,

I can imagine Barnes and Noble didn't have that set ! Unless they reprinted that set you made a terrific find. I'd like to read through those volumes, sure to be some GREAT information in those pages.

Matthew

 

[enigma]

matthew, when you locate your copy of the talk mr cavaness gave to the cattlemans association around 1920, would you be willing to post a copy of it here? it would make a find combination together with mr croxens as a description of the area in waltz's time. mr davis, you dont by any chance have a copy or know if one is available through the smhs?

i certainly agree that there were more than a few influences both natural and unnatural that have drastically changed the look and feel of the superstition wilderness area in the last 150 years.

im reviewing my copy of the typewritten memoirs of matt cavaness after a number of years and enjoying it. itll eventually cause me to ask some questions, but ill save that for a different topic

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Good evening Enigma: Thank you for your question. Where did you hear about a "talk mr cavaness gave to the cattlemans association around 1920?" I do not recall seeing where Matthew stated that such a document existed, just that Coxen had heard from people like Cavaness about the early range. I personally have never heard of such a document only the "Memoirs of Matt Cavaness". Please clarify you source and I will try to see if I can locate it for you. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[deducer]

Very interesting information in this thread.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Cavaness gave his talk to the Arizona Cattlemans Association sometime around 1919 - 1920. Fred Croxen gave his speech to the Forest service sometime around 1926-1927. Almost everything Croxen talked about came directly from the Cattleman's Association, not the Forest Service.
The Arizona cattlemen would have several speakers at their annual and semi annual meetings in Phoenix and Tucson. Cavaness, Frank Mayer and Revilo Fuller all talked at the 1919-1920 meeting along with several others I do not recall, possibly Christian Cline. All these men were early cattlemen on the ranges and life long members of the cattleman's association. Matt Cavaness was the earliest and the first to run cattle on the Superstition range. He ranched at least 4 other spreads all over central Arizona. There were many good talks given at those cattleman meetings and I will try and locate some of them to post.


Frank Lee Kirby 1946 US Forest Service was the Superintendant of the Tonto National Forest for 25 years and later the Federal range examiner. Kirby knew Fred Croxen and many of the early cattlemen.
Kirby was probably the most knowledgeable man in Arizona concerning range management and native habitation.


Neil Erickson, former soldier with the 4th cavalry in the Arizona indian wars and later a 20 year member with the Forest service in the Tonto region.
Another man who knew all the old time ranchers and how to manage the cattle ranges.

Matthew

 

[enigma]

Good evening Enigma: Thank you for your question. Where did you hear about a "talk mr cavaness gave to the cattlemans association around 1920?" I do not recall seeing where Matthew stated that such a document existed, just that Coxen had heard from people like Cavaness about the early range. I personally have never heard of such a document only the "Memoirs of Matt Cavaness". Please clarify you source and I will try to see if I can locate it for you. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

hello mr davis,

thereis a thread that unfortunately is locked down now entitled 'matt cavaness and the board house' that has matthew mentioning it in post #6. im not sure exactly how links work here to other topics but i'll give it a try and i'll also copy that specific comment just in case the link doesnt work.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...75-matt-cavaness-board-house.html#post4026389

Somewhere in my files I have a copy of a talk Matt Cavaness gave to the Arizona cattleman's association about 1920. In it he described the cattle range in the Superstitions in the early days when he first built the Cavaness ranch.

dont wear yourself out too hard looking for it until matthew has a chance to respond. i assumed from the statement that its a written copy, but it may only be a notice for the meeting or something else and not actually a physcial copy of a presentation. it was just a thought that it would make for a good combination with what we've started here and tie it in specificlly to the superstition mountains themselves.

thanks

edit - just as i hit enter i saw the above post from matthew. thank you and if his talk is in your collection or there are any others specifically related to the superstition area that wuold be great to see.

 

[enigma]

Very interesting information in this thread.

it wont do a darn thing to get anyone closer to a lost mine, but sometimes it feels good just to relive some history

 

[Azhiker]

it wont do a darn thing to get anyone closer to a lost mine, but sometimes it feels good just to relive some history

It sure is good to be able to see some good history photos and learn something from a topic without the usual trolls taking over the thread and organizing another attack on members who actualy are trying to share what they have in their files with other members.
I keep holding my breath we can get through just one thread without having to lock it down because of verbal and personal attacks. Great information in this thread, thanks everyone who is sharing!
Matthew, wasn't Jim Bark one of the big shots in the cattle association of Arizona back in its beginning?

Azhiker

 

[Matthew Roberts]

It sure is good to be able to see some good history photos and learn something from a topic without the usual trolls taking over the thread and organizing another attack on members who actualy are trying to share what they have in their files with other members.
I keep holding my breath we can get through just one thread without having to lock it down because of verbal and personal attacks. Great information in this thread, thanks everyone who is sharing!
Matthew, wasn't Jim Bark one of the big shots in the cattle association of Arizona back in its beginning?

Azhiker

azhiker,

Yes, Jim Bark was one of the men who pushed hard for the organization of the Arizona Cattle Growers Association. By 1904 most of the cattle ranges in Arizona had been overgrazed with a lot of destruction which would never be reversed. Capt. William H. McKittrick was the man responsible for getting the cattlemen together and addressing the issues of the range as well as rustling and property loss which was also out of hand in 1904. It took almost the ruin of the entire cattle industry in Arizona for the ranchers to finally band together and tackle the tough issues. McKittrick was the first President of the organization and if I remember correctly Jim Bark was the Vice-President. Bark followed McKittrick as the second President of the AZ Cattle Growers in about 1906.

I'm not 100% certain but I believe most or all of the old AZ Cattleman's Association (ACGA) meeting records and minutes are in the Richard Schaus collection. Schaus was throughout his life heavily involved in the Arizona cattleman's organization. He was the photographer, historian and writer for the ACGA and had a regular column in the ACGA Magazine I believe he called it the Cowboy Corner. Schaus was also the editor of his own publication , the Cattlelog for many years.

Matthew

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola, it has been mentioned that it didn't help in locating the mine, I can argue the point. The Dutchman had to fuel and check the cooling system of his means of transportation i.e. his burros. Knowing the food situation at the time could well eliminate vast areas due to the lack of forage

In the 50's, while exploring the Barrancas of north western Mexico, I could freely travel almost anywhere because of the abundance of grass, . Later as the people moved back they brought their cattle with them and as they killed off the preditors the cattle thrived, and they over grazed and the grass disappeared. Today one has to take corn or buy it at an isolated ranch to supliment the poor grazing.

You can still find isolated areas with good forage, but the cattle, when hungry, can access almost impossibly rough range.
The ranchers secret is to establish salt licks and merely to wait - they will come to him

In the flat land they have been planting Bufo, an imported grass from Africa. Is is very hardy, but once established it takes over, nothing else can compete with it and is almost impossible to get rid of.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Hello Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp: You hit the nail on the head. Knowing the history of an area in the past, the abundance of or lack of springs, the abundance of or lack of feed plus game can all come into play when establishing a route of or distance to a location and the amount of time to get there including the time one can stay in a certain location. Knowing the history of an area, its geography, its geology, its flora and fauna, can play a very important part in Treasure Hunting. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[enigma]

Hola, it has been mentioned that it didn't help in locating the mine, I can argue the point. The Dutchman had to fuel and check the cooling system of his means of transportation i.e. his burros. Knowing the food situation at the time could well eliminate vast areas due to the lack of forage

In the 50's, while exploring the Barrancas of north western Mexico, I could freely travel almost anywhere because of the abundance of grass, . Later as the people moved back they brought their cattle with them and as they killed off the preditors the cattle thrived, and they over grazed and the grass disappeared. Today one has to take corn or buy it at an isolated ranch to supliment the poor grazing.

You can still find isolated areas with good forage, but the cattle, when hungry, can access almost impossibly rough range.
The ranchers secret is to establish salt licks and merely to wait - they will come to him

In the flat land they have been planting Bufo, an imported grass from Africa. Is is very hardy, but once established it takes over, nothing else can compete with it and is almost impossible to get rid of.

Don Jose de La Mancha

i didnt think of it that way. probably why im better at learning and studying history then i am at hunting treasure

 

[cactusjumper]

Hola, it has been mentioned that it didn't help in locating the mine, I can argue the point. The Dutchman had to fuel and check the cooling system of his means of transportation i.e. his burros. Knowing the food situation at the time could well eliminate vast areas due to the lack of forage

In the 50's, while exploring the Barrancas of north western Mexico, I could freely travel almost anywhere because of the abundance of grass, . Later as the people moved back they brought their cattle with them and as they killed off the preditors the cattle thrived, and they over grazed and the grass disappeared. Today one has to take corn or buy it at an isolated ranch to supliment the poor grazing.

You can still find isolated areas with good forage, but the cattle, when hungry, can access almost impossibly rough range.
The ranchers secret is to establish salt licks and merely to wait - they will come to him

In the flat land they have been planting Bufo, an imported grass from Africa. Is is very hardy, but once established it takes over, nothing else can compete with it and is almost impossible to get rid of.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

As I understand it, "Bufo" is a toad, not a grass. On the other hand, Buffel grass was introduced to Arizona to improve grazing for cattle. It takes over everything and is highly flammable. Originally from Africa it is very hard to eradicate. Because of it's being very good fuel for wildfires, it's helped to create the reduced native forage for cattle and wildlife on Arizona grazing lands. It seems to be a close cousin to Cheatgrass, which is also a problem.

Other than that small correction, that was a great post.

Take care,

Joe

 

[enigma]

it looks like most of the threads im interested in have either been deleted or are locked except this one. im still interested in seeing matt cavaness talk to the arizona cattlemans association from 1919-1920, so if anyone has a copy and wouldnt mind sharing it, please send me a pm. i think i can get to the phoenix area sometime in the next 2 years, so will make time to look around in some of the sources pointed to me and see if i can find it also.