A house divided against itself cannot stand.

[lesjcbs]

A house divided against itself cannot stand. Remember that saying?

We in the metal detecting community are under serious attack. It is getting to the point where it could come down that buying a metal detector could be illegal. Don't rule it out!

We need to react and act, or we will be acted upon.

To find out what is happening and where, go to the Federation Of Metal Detecting And Archaeological club web site (FMDAC).

I hope this letter will inspire you to join in the fight and to write your own and every Senator and Congressman in the U.S. This is a national issue and tons of letters need to be written and sent to our law makers.. It is no longer enough to just read.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Senator xxxxx

Since 1975, I have enjoyed and participated in the Recreational Metal Detecting activity and hobby. I was introduced to it by my shop Supervisor when I was in the USAF and stationed at Castle AFB California.

Metal Detecting is a wonderful and fantastic activity that involves getting out into the great outdoors with family and friends and getting in some good quality exercise time.

But, along the way, we in the Metal Detecting community have run into highly restrictive, bizarre, repressive, and ridiculous laws that need to be changed. These laws, the Antiquities Act of 1906, the Archaeological Resource Protection Act (ARPA) of 1979 and other laws were put into place when metal detectors were hardly known, when metal detecting was not so popular as it is now, and because some careless individuals in the far gone past dug up and destroyed things from ancient times that should have been left alone.

When you look at the regulations of individual government agencies, such as the Nation Park Service or the National Forest Service, the attitude and understanding about and towards the Recreational Metal Detecting activity and community varies radically. The National Park Service regulations are extremely restrictive, repressive, and out of touch with reality, but the National Forest Service has a more realistic view, respect, understanding, and attitude.

In the case of the National Park Service the regulations are so strict, one can only conclude that when leaving any national park, you must stop at the gate, brush off your shoes and wash your car down to keep from taking any park dirt out of the park, as you must not take anything out with you and park dirt is on shoes, cars, ATV's, and dirt bikes. Also, in some national parks, ATV'S, dirt bikes, and 4X4 trucks can run about freely, creating deep gashes and holes with impunity, and it is allowed. Yet, heaven forbid we bring in an 8” garden hand trowel like the one grandma uses to cultivate her rose garden with and threaten to dig down 1” – 3” in the dirt while metal detecting to recover a coin or piece of lost jewelry. HEAVEN FORBID!

On the other hand, the National Forest Service recognizes that recreational metal detecting is a: “low surface impact, casual activity where small holes deeper than 6” are rarely dug” and thus it is allowed. The National Forest Service has it right.

The reason I point this out is I recently wrote the Superintendent of the Lone Rock Recreational area of Lake Powell near Page Arizona, asking permission to metal detect there on the beach and surrounding area. The answer was “No.” Yet when you go there, you will find deep gashes in the sand, the hills west of it are torn up from ATV's and dirt bikes climbing those hills. You will also find open holes on the beach with black rocks around pits where a camp fire was built. You will also find an occasional smashed aluminum soda or beer can close by. But again, heaven forbid we bring in grandmas 8” garden trowel to dig out a coin in the sand, then fill in the hole. If that area contained artifacts from ancient times and peoples, and is thus so sensitive, then vehicular traffic should not be allowed either. But that area IS NOT an area that contains ancient artifacts and IS NOT a sensitive archeologic area. Any such things that MIGHT have been there before the dam was built and Lake Powell was formed, have long since been destroyed. Moreover, in some national parks and national monument areas, where feasible, hunting with guns is allowed, even to the extent that some hunters have been accidentally shot and killed.

To add insult to injury, the National Park regulations also forbids you passing through a national park on your way to a destination miles outside the park and having a metal detector in your car. This part of the law is wrong on many levels.

The metal detecting community has and goes by a code of conduct you don't see elsewhere. I can say with total accuracy, most of us follow it to the letter. Here is just part of that code. It varies depending on who you are talking with, but this will give you an idea and feel of who we are and what we do:

• Always ask permission to detect where needed.
• Fill in all holes to the extent no one can tell you were there.
• Do not destroy private or public property.
• Close all gates.
• Obey all NO TRESPASSING signs. No fence jumping.
• Pack out what you packed in.
• Leave all wild life animals alone.
• Pick up trash you find and put it in the nearest trash bin.
• Report your discovery of any item that is possibly of archaeological interest.
• Protect the metal detecting hobby by being a good will ambassador.

The Antiquities Act of 1906, states that anything that is 100 years or older is not to be taken. The Archaeological Resource Protection Act (ARPA) of 1979 states that anything that is 50 years or older is not to be taken. IF we are to STAY WITH the 100 year and 50-year-old time dates, then that means the following:

1. In the case of the Antiquities Act of 1906 it would be more reasonable for it to state anything that is older than 1806 (1906 - 100 = 1806) is not to be taken.

2. Likewise, for ARPA, it would be more reasonable to state that anything that is older than 1929 (1979 - 50 = 1929) should not be taken. Furthermore, the way this law is currently written and reads, it means that if you go to your bank and draw out a roll of coins and one or two coins were minted before 1970, then legally and by law, you cannot spend it as it is old enough today to be an archaeological artifact and is protected.

In closing, I want to point out that even though ARPA, the Antiquities Act and other laws were put in place to protect, preserve, and for the public to see and enjoy things from the past, from personal experience with archaeologists, I can assure you with total 100% confidence, that the greater and vast majority of artifacts found by Archaeologists, are either locked up in back rooms to be kept from the public eye, or destroyed by one method or the other. On the other hand, recreational metal detecting finds are routinely shared daily with friends, relatives, and other visitors to see, enjoy, and to envy. The metal detecting community IS NOT interested at all in bones, arrow heads, spear heads, pottery, or ancient corn cobs. Look on the internet and you will find thousands of pictures posted by metal detectonists. One such great web site is the forum in www.treasurenet.com under the thread "Today's Finds." The number of metallic finds there are staggering and the posts go back years in time, and you can view and enjoy them all, like they should be. Additionally, after all these years, Archaeologists are starting to recognize and appreciate the value of using metal detectors in their digs, and either own one or will ask someone who has one and knows how to use it to help them.

I respectfully request that you look in to changing these laws to allow “Recreational Metal Detecting” activity in these areas and lands where it is not currently allowed. As the laws are currently written, they are way beyond being grossly ridiculous. Changing them to be more sensible is the right thing to do.

Thank you for your kind attention to this issue.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A History of Mining on the Kenai Peninsula, Alaska - Grab it through Amazon!

[lesjcbs]

(Quoted deleted by mod)
RightSaid, who is them?

 

[Kray Gelder]

I am a guy with a metal detector. I don't belong to the metal detecting community. I don't participate in group think. If I spot another detectorist, the need to talk to them doesn't hit me. It's not social at all for me. While having read this list of ethics many times, by different authors, and agree mostly with the lofty goals, I would not say I follow it to the letter. I don't follow much of any other person's list of things to do. Independent thought.

Also, as a man with a detector, while out in the field, I am VERY interested in bones, spear heads, arrow heads, pottery, interesting rocks, fossils, observing wildlife.

Many of us have encountered the contradictory laws, rules, and regulations. You just have to accept, complain to your elected officials, or do what you have to do. Good luck to you.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Posts from banned member deleted.

 

[lesjcbs]

I am a guy with a metal detector. I don't belong to the metal detecting community. I don't participate in group think. If I spot another detectorist, the need to talk to them doesn't hit me. It's not social at all for me. While having read this list of ethics many times, by different authors, and agree mostly with the lofty goals, I would not say I follow it to the letter. I don't follow much of any other person's list of things to do. Independent thought.

Also, as a man with a detector, while out in the field, I am VERY interested in bones, spear heads, arrow heads, pottery, interesting rocks, fossils, observing wildlife.

Many of us have encountered the contradictory laws, rules, and regulations. You just have to accept, complain to your elected officials, or do what you have to do. Good luck to you.

Fantastic and well said. Just keep in mind that if you are caught with that arrow or spear head in your pocket, you are guilty of breaking the antiquities act. If you have a metal detector sitting in the back seat of your car while passing through a National Park, you are committing a crime and IF caught, the punishment can be sevier

It doesn't matter if you are an independent thinker or not, the law is the law and you are guilty.

Just be aware.

 

[Georgivs]

Sometimes the squeaky hinge gets oiled and sometimes it gets replaced. Be careful of who's attention you bring and where you bring it.

 

[lesjcbs]

Here is an article that deals with this subject.

Is Recreational Metal Detecting on the Endangered List?
By: Lee Wiese


Download this article

Metal Detecting took form in the 1950-60s and the detectorists who were metal detecting at that time had very few restrictions and the finds were fabulous. Metal detecting during this period can be described similar to being in the old west with open ranges and anything goes. The finds stories from those in the hobby during that period are hard to believe against today’s detecting results.

So is Metal detecting on the Endangered List? Let’s take a look at the barriers and variables that affect the hobby.

Barriers to Recreational Metal Detecting

The Law: Today, the U.S. metal detecting environment is controlled by a hodgepodge of Federal, State, City, County laws. A major reason for this is that there is no regulation, law or statue at the Federal level that provides any support for recreational metal detecting.

Some of the Federal statues were written before metal detecting became a popular hobby and since these acts were drafted to protect America’s Heritage it may have been felt that users of a metal detector on federal lands would rob America of some of its heritage. There were four major federal acts drafted to protect America’s heritage and everyone (detectorist) should read each of them. They are:

• 1906 American Antiquities Act act link
• 1966 National Historic Preservation Act, As amended in 2000 act link
• 1979 Archaeological Resources Protection Act act link
• 1990 Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act act link

The four acts indeed do protect Americas Heritage but at the same time limit or in most situations make metal detecting an unlawful act. If someone is caught metal detecting in National Parks, National Historical Sites, National Monuments, National Recreational Areas, Native American Lands or on archaeological sites the penalties can be severe. There are a few exceptions where portions of Federal Forest Service and BLM lands allow metal detecting if no archaeology sites are present.

During the past 35 years most, if not all, of the fifty states now have laws modeled after the federal acts thus making many state lands unavailable to metal detecting. Many states have also enacted specific metal detecting laws that make it unlawful to detect, or may require special permits and permission to metal detect state land areas. The result is that individual state laws have direct impact and control over recreational metal detecting in the 50 states. Of course this includes state parks, historical sites and state archaeological sites. Usually metal detecting laws are very different from state to state.

In more recent times counties, cities and school districts have also enacted regulations that restrict, forbid or require a permit to metal detect. Each year in the U.S. the list of cities, counties and school districts grows in length as new restrictions are exacted against metal detecting.

The result is that more and more public lands are becoming unavailable to recreational metal detecting. Plus some states are in the process of enacting changes to their archaeology law which in the future may or will impact the ability to metal detect on private lands without specific permits and permission.

Governmental Staffing. The federal government has agencies or very large departments that support the various acts related to the preservation of America’s Heritage. All of these agencies are fully staffed with professionals educated in their specific disciplines to protect and evaluate America’s heritage and resources.

To compliment the Federal agencies are state agencies and departments which are also staffed, but at lesser levels, to handle the same types of issues. Counties and cities usually have staff in various departments responsible for the oversight of the same American Heritage issues.

Currently you can find staffing at all levels of government that support America’s Heritage. So it has become very difficult to get laws and regulations passed, or just modified to support recreational metal detecting. There are now many barriers and no one in the public sector is interested or chartered in providing support for the hobby.

Variables that affect Recreational Metal Detecting

National Detecting Association. In the U.S. there are no metal detecting associations that truly represent the metal detecting hobby. Yes, there are national associations in name but do they really represent the hobby at any government level? No. Occasionally, after an incident occurs these associations take up an issue. Therefore, they do take on small skirmishes but the associations are not pro-active in working with government officials just re-active to a given situation. The major reason for this is the lack of funding, the volunteer staff, and the lack of strong hobbyist loyalty to protect the hobby.

What might be the requirements for an association that truly can, could and would represent metal detecting?

Association Requires:

• a paid association staff
• vision, mission, strategies, tactical plans, commitment, and financial resources
• alliances with other hobby associations (Prospecting, Off Road, Gem & Rock Hounds, Bottle Collectors, Coin & Token Collectors and other like hobbies)
• recognition and support by detector companies
• strong support from U.S. clubs and individual detectorist
• involvement in governmental legislation

Three recognized U.S. National Detecting Associations are:

• WWATS - World Wide Assn of Treasure Seekers web link
• FMDAC - Federation of Metal Detecting and Archaeology Clubs web link
• TFMDR - Task Force for Metal Detecting Rights web link

State Detecting Association. There is a vacuum in the U.S. when it comes to state metal detecting associations. These associations could provide a great deal of metal detecting support at the state level. Any state that has five or more clubs should be represented by a state metal detecting association. The primary role of this association would be to introduce state metal detecting legislation, monitor other state legislation and provide direct support to local clubs. Currently there are two state associations:

• Metal Detecting Association Of Washington web link
• Texas Council of Treasure Clubs web link

Each of these organizations would be a good model to emulate for setting up new state association.

Detecting Clubs. There are around 550 metal detecting clubs in the U.S. with only a small number of these clubs being actively involved in their local community; far more clubs take no leadership role in the support and protection of the hobby. Some large clubs with good organizational structure and membership involvement do not participate in any way at the national, state level, or in their community. Generally, clubs do not even have a training program for new detectorist, yet with the influx of new detectorists the need of such a program is very desirable.

Clubs are usually centered on internal club events. This is good for the membership but in today’s environment these same clubs must dedicate people, club time and resources to do much more to support the hobby.

The Hobby. With the retirement of the boomer generation the hobby will experience many new detectorists. These new retirees are looking for an experience that will provide exercise, enjoyment, a new challenge and getting outdoors. This influx of adults into recreational metal detecting may add to the endangerment of the hobby. Why is this? These new detector hobbyists are not educated on the laws influencing metal detecting, the responsibilities of the detectorist, the ethics, the proper recovery of a target and how to detect without annoying people in their immediate area. This lack of metal detecting knowledge can lead to damaging public and private properties as well as the public’s image of the hobby. This in turn may cause more lands to become off limits to metal detecting since public officials will be quick to make metal detecting unlawful if complaints arise.

There is also the issue of proper etiquette while metal detecting. Etiquette encompasses the use of detecting ethics, the detectorist responsibilities and displaying proper respect for others in one’s immediate metal detecting area.
Example: Proper beach detecting etiquette is extremely important by

• keeping a wide distance or margin away from other beach goers
• not lifting your sand scoop up high and shake it when sand can be blown from the scoop onto people laying on the beach
• not metal detecting on the beach during the busiest times of the day
• always removing all metal trash from the beach
• etc, etc.

Metal detecting etiquette will be a future mdhtalk article.Detectorist Responsibility. The term Responsible Metal Detecting can be found in the Code of Practice on Responsible Metal Detecting in England and Wales web link to responsibilities. However, the term Responsible Metal Detecting in the U.S. is rarely used or defined. Below you will find six major heading of an article on the responsibilities available on the MDHTALK website.
Responsible Metal Detecting is to:

• Know and Follow the Law
• Gain Permission
• Always Apply the Metal Detecting Code of Ethics
• Join a Metal Detecting Club and National Metal Detecting Association
• Understand the Potential Cultural Value of Your Find
• Volunteer Your Services to the Hobby

You will find more detail for each of these responsibilities at: web link to article
Metal Detecting Ethics: web link to article

Night Hawking. Night Hawking is metal detecting on public and private lands under the cover of darkness. As there is an increasing effort to curb the hobby by making more laws and greater enforcement of existing laws detectorist will out of desperation, turn to night hawking to detect and remove those remaining good targets.

As the public becomes aware of metal detecting abuses such as night hawking, public officials will be lobbied more and more by groups that support the preservation of native American artifacts, historical sites and archaeological resources. The result will be more restrictions and greater enforcement against the hobby.

Detectors Technology: During the last ten years metal detector technology has greatly improved by providing greater depth sensitivity, LCD displays, target id technology, software control, and enhanced coil technology. The detectors of today provide the user with the opportunity to detect targets at greater and greater depths. This greater depth capability is a plus for the hobbyist and can be a minus for the hobby. Putting this technology in the hands of inexperienced hobbyist can lead to the destruction both public and private land. This is because recovering targets that are much deeper can result in creating wider and deeper holes in the turf to recover the target. Without proper target recovery training these deeper target recovery efforts can be disastrous to the turf and in turn to the public’s image of the hobby.

Environment. The laws to protect the environment, the laws to protect animal & marine species and laws to protect other archaeology resources will in the future have a greater impact on beach detecting (fresh & salt water). On salt water beaches during certain periods of the year you can find small taped off areas to protect turtle eggs. In the future as more attention is placed on protecting marine life you will probably see complete beaches and coastal areas un-accessible for public activities.

Here is one example: The California Marine Life Protection Act (MLPA), calls for the creation of a science-based network of marine protected areas along the state's coastline similar to national parks regulation on land. web site link

There have also been numerous examples drafted to establish a National Landscape Conservation Program to cover BLM lands. This type of legislation could be similar to the national park regulations for outdoor use and be very restrictive. This legislation would impact all outdoor hobbies not just metal detecting.

Fresh water beaches, lakes and streams are starting to be protected by archaeology laws as the states rush to protect more of America’s Heritage. In the future, these laws will become better defined and enforceable towards fresh water beaches, adjacent water areas, lakes and streams and will most likely make them un-accessible to metal detecting.

Conclusion. The U.S. wide environment for recreational metal detecting during the past twenty-fives years has gotten much more restrictive and far more restrictions are expected in the next twenty years. Take a look at the graphic below.

• The “X” axis has key dates that concise with the four major federal acts plus today and the future.
• The “Y” axis represents how rapidly states, counties and cities have enacted laws and regulations supporting the federal acts.
• The red arc (line) from 1906 to the Future displays the rate at which public entities have adopted or created laws that indirectly or directly effect recreational metal detecting.
• High Impact Rate. This is the projected rate at which laws and regulations are enacted that will make metal detecting unlawful, or require a permit, or permission.
• Graphic Disclaimer. This graphics is based on the analysis of the federal acts, state laws, and the review of many county and city regulations. The percentages are a bit of a guess when it comes to the level of law enacted in each entity (states, counties, cities) however the error factor is probably relatively small.

In summary the graphic is an interpretation of the previous discussed on the barriers to metal detecting and the variable that effect metal detecting as represented by the opinion of this author.

As laws and regulations continue to be enacted in more and more public entities there is a lack of evidence that national detecting associations, state detecting associations and detecting clubs have had any impact on slowing down the generation of these laws and regulations.

With many more inexperience detectorists entering into the hobby and using the greatly improved detector technology the issue is; there is no clear and consisted way to educate them on the dos’ and don’ts of the hobby. Finally, the future looks bleak when it comes to new environmental legislation that may be passed and in turn could impact the hobby’s future.

By just looking at the time period from 1990 to today you can see that a great deal of change is taking place in relationship to the laws and regulations driven by the hobbies popularity and distrust of the hobby by those in government. The expectation is that this curve will accelerate in the next twenty years as the result of more regulation of the hobby. The result will be that at some point metal detecting will probably not be available on most lands in the U.S. So…..

The question: Is Recreational Metal Detecting on the Endangered List? YES, one can find no evidences that the current trend rate will not continue to go up and to the right on the graphic. Currently, there is nothing in the works to change or diminish the metal detecting barriers or to alter the metal detecting variables.

Next month there will be a follow-up article on some alternatives to aid the hobby. If you have an opinion about this article, or a possible alternate view, or a possible solution MDHTALK would like to hear from you.

You can email MDHTALK at: mdhobbytalk@mdhtalk.org

---

[FONT=&quot]Metal Detecting Hobb[/FONT]​

 

[ToddsPoint]

Posts from banned member deleted.

If he's banned, how was he able to post? Gary

 

[jeff of pa]

FMDAC (Federation of Metal Detector and Archaeological Clubs Inc)
&
WWATS (World Wide Association of Treasure Seekers )

Even

GPAA (Gold Prospectors Association of America.)


are All well & good. But I'm not so sure Contacting Your Senators over Something That Ain't Front & Center already,
is Such a good thing in the present political Climate especially.

I Don't want to turn this into a Derangement Syndrome thread.
But ya know if you get a Particular Political side to Back you,
the other side will sponsor a Bill to end detecting.

Just remember that Most politicians
are Completely Blind to the Metal Detecting Hobby.
and
Ignorance is Bliss when it comes to Politics.

I say If there is a Sponsored Bill then take it up.
This is an election Year

If it ain't Broke, Ya Don't need the Scotch tape & Elmers

 

[lesjcbs]

First of all, the metal detecting community is not going away. In fact, our numbers are getting larger.

To sit by in fear and do nothing thinking nothing is going to change, will allow new and ever more restrictive laws to be passed against our hobby. It could get to the point you will hear like gun control : Metal Detector Control.

Most political representatives will be reelected and will take with them the knowledge of what our complaints are.

Freedom is not free and I remember those days when there was not so many laws against our hobby. By comparison, today is crap, reasrtctive, laughable, and sissy like.

 

[A2coins]

I m with you I was told I couldn't hunt at an Arboretum in Ann Arbor I spoke with the head of that department He was from England and very helpful and gave me permission he understood plus we pay for the parks ect dogs do more damage to the grass than I could ever do. Thanks for this post I will join this cause one more voice. Tommy

 

[lesjcbs]

Oh my gosh, that's right,WE PAY MONEY TO GO INTO NATIONAL PARKS.

As was pointed out earlier, it is election year but that does not matter. Most House reps and Senators will be reelected and will carry with them into their next term the notices and complaints they receive from the metal detecting community, but only if they hear from us, and they need to receive lots of letters by both snail mail and emails.

This is a national issue, not just a state issue. That means writing every Rep and Senator in the nation is what has to be done.

Thanks and much thanks again for the heads up, for the reminder that we pay to go into national Parks.

 

[lesjcbs]

FMDAC (Federation of Metal Detector and Archaeological Clubs Inc)
&
WWATS (World Wide Association of Treasure Seekers )

Even

GPAA (Gold Prospectors Association of America.)


are All well & good. But I'm not so sure Contacting Your Senators over Something That Ain't Front & Center already,
is Such a good thing in the present political Climate especially.

I Don't want to turn this into a Derangement Syndrome thread.
But ya know if you get a Particular Political side to Back you,
the other side will sponsor a Bill to end detecting.

Just remember that Most politicians
are Completely Blind to the Metal Detecting Hobby.
and
Ignorance is Bliss when it comes to Politics.

I say If there is a Sponsored Bill then take it up.
This is an election Year

If it ain't Broke, Ya Don't need the Scotch tape & Elmers

The attempt to ban metal detecting is already in the plans, and because of that, everyone's support is needed, even yours, to provide a united front to stop the onslaught to our hobby.

 

[lesjcbs]

Once again, everyone's support including yours, is needed to build a united front to push back and stop the onslaught of our hobby.

We may never meet at some location, but we can contact our representatives via Email, snail mail, phone calls, and visits to their offices to let them know how we feel about this issue.

 

[49er12]

I just came across your post, u no I get tired as heck of certain individuals wanted to take down post when they consider it political, dam idiots everything is related, ur trying to tell us the truth, then they say can’t. So where do we stand, this hobby and every other is on attack in some nature, by whom the government so those that don’t like honest opinions concerning this hobby, go after the government they the enemy not u and I, so sad how this USA has went to hell in 200 plus years, thanks

 

[lesjcbs]

Well said 49. I was detecting before ARPA became law and I can tell about the only places we could not detect on was private property.

I am laughing at what has happened since then and I can assure you that today we look and act like a sorry pack of cowards and disgusting sissies.

Change to respect our hobby is long past due!

 

[Honest Samuel]

I was born in the USA.

 

[lesjcbs]

UPDATE:

Since post number 2, I have updated, added, or changed my letter to Senators and House Representatives to include the following truths:

1. Just like everyone else, including those who ride dirt bikes, 4X4's, and ATV's in some National Parks that tear and rip up where they ride, we in the metal detecting community PAY to get in too, yet our small digging tools are a threat?

2. The sliding times of 50 years old in ARPA, and the 100 year old time in the Antiquities Act contradict each other. You cannot have two laws on the same matter contradicting each other. It's like saying the speed limit is both 50 and 80 MPH at the same time.

I am quite sure that RightSaid who is probably a hard core Archaeologist who has a burning hatred for our hobby, and who was banned from posting here, is monitoring us. GOOD. He / she needs to read the truth.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

I just came across your post, u no I get tired as heck of certain individuals wanted to take down post when they consider it political, dam idiots everything is related, ur trying to tell us the truth, then they say can’t. So where do we stand, this hobby and every other is on attack in some nature, by whom the government so those that don’t like honest opinions concerning this hobby, go after the government they the enemy not u and I, so sad how this USA has went to hell in 200 plus years, thanks

Political comments directly related to Treasure hunting laws are allowed, political comments not DIRECTLY related to Treasure hunting violate our rules, rules ever member here agrees to by posting on TreasureNet forums. Political bashing comments are not allowed except in our politics forum.

 

[lesjcbs]

Where is the politics part of the forum?