Antique National Park Postcards with rock samples

[diggingthe1]

A friend found these at an estate sale and is wondering if it would be legal to sell them. Thanks for any help, I could not find anything similar. It seems they would have some value. Maybe they were collected before there was a law. There are samples from the Grande Canyon, Bryce and Zion. Ebay gave me the green light to list them. Does anyone see any trouble coming. Thanks for any input.

 

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[Red James Cash]

why wouldnt it be legal to sell them?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Interesting question !

You say "Maybe they were collected before the law". But: Not so fast on that . The 1979 ARPA is merely a revision of the 1906 version:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquities_Act

I'm assuming those post cards are post-1906, eh ? And of course, it assumes the 1906 version forbade taking rocks. I believe it contained the verbiage "mineral resources". Or at least: "scientific interest" objects, among the things it protected. Could those things be construed to protect individual rocks ? SURE !

Perhaps your question is better put this way : Not "Is it legal", but rather: "Does anyone really care?"

 

[diggingthe1]

It is just my paranoia, I was thinking it is illegal to have rocks from the National Parks in your possession. Thanks for the response.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Reminds me of an interesting situation that occurred at Presidio of Monterey, CA museum where I do museum work at : The museum took donation of some cannonballs, that had been dug there on-site, by guys with metal detectors "back in the old days". Ie.: there was a time when .... quite frankly ... you could ... uh ... be unbothered. Or strange things where some md'rs had gotten permission , from higher ups who simply didn't know any better about archie or ARPA issues. And another odd case where a high-ranking military guy there got into the hobby, and simply used his rank. Ie.: if anyone complained, he just flashed his credentials and they slinked away.

Fast forward to the 2010s, and these donations came in, from a guy I happened to know (who detected there in the 1970s and '80s in "more innocent times"). I was having a casual talk with the head city curator, and the subject came up about other similar objects that I knew of, that were in private hands. Eg.: coins, buttons, etc.... that ... likewise .... had come from that era before awareness/enforcement.

The city head curator dude made an interesting comment to me: He said that technically, if they knew of any such objects, they could simply take them from those citizens. Ie.: not wait for "donation", etc.... Under the theory that they were unlawfully taken. Albeit in ignorance or innocence, or .... even with various permissions (albeit un-justified).

It was just casual chit-chat. And he didn't have any actual intent to pursue what I was saying. But he was just commenting on the legal issue. He personally (even with his archie-mindset) could care less.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

It is just my paranoia, I was thinking it is illegal to ....

Ok, sure. And so too could laws that are on-the-books everywhere that forbid "harvest", "take", and "remove" (that exist on every speck of public land, at all levels) be construed to forbid you from having taken home that seashell for your grade-school art project when you were a kid.

And that grade-school art project might still exist, in a box in your mother's attic somewhere. Thus by the same token, we could say that's illegal. Eh ? But again the REAL question is: Does anyone care ? Of course not. I bet there's not more than 3 people, in the entire USA, that could connect-such-dots regarding your post-cards, and even make a connection. Not even the MOST PURIST ARCHIES alive, would ever split hairs about something this innocuous.

But it is an interesting legal question, for purposes of technicalities.

 

[kingskid1611]

I like them for two reasons. I am a rock collector is one but the other is vintage postcards. I come across a lot of items that can be construed as illegal to sell/own but have not found anyone interested in pursuing legal action on me. Its not worth their time or effort and especially due to the fact that I came across them legally by cleanouts/abandoned property.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Interesting question !

You say "Maybe they were collected before the law". But: Not so fast on that . The 1979 ARPA is merely a revision of the 1906 version:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquities_Act

I'm assuming those post cards are post-1906, eh ? And of course, it assumes the 1906 version forbade taking rocks. I believe it contained the verbiage "mineral resources". Or at least: "scientific interest" objects, among the things it protected. Could those things be construed to protect individual rocks ? SURE !

Perhaps your question is better put this way : Not "Is it legal", but rather: "Does anyone really care?"

The original Antiquities Act was declared unconstitutional. No one has ever been successfully prosecuted under the 1906 Antiquities Act. If someone collected antiquities from federal lands before 1979 they, and the objects, are exempt from ARPA.

Neither the 1906 Act nor the 1979 ARPA have anything to do with rocks, minerals or fossils. They specifically only address the collection of Antiquities on federally managed lands.

Antiquities are only things that meet all the following requirements:

1. Made by man and are,
2. Of scientific or historic interest and are,
3. More than 100 years old.

Even if an object meets all those requirements ARPA only protects antiquities on federal lands. National Parks are federal lands.

Neither rocks nor fossils are made by men. They are not Antiquities.

Arrowheads found on the surface and coins are specifically excluded from the Antiquities Acts. You may collect them if you find them.

The National Park Service no longer allows rock collecting in the National Parks and Monuments with two exceptions:

Rockhounding/Recreational Collecting
Collecting, rockhounding, and gold panning of rocks, minerals, and paleontological specimens, for either recreational or educational purposes is generally prohibited in all units of the National Park System (36 C.F.R. § 2.1(a) and § 2.5(a)). Violators of this prohibition are subject to criminal penalties. Anyone with information about illegal activities or who would like to report suspicious activity in the national parks should call 1-888-NPS-CRIME (888-677-2746). You may speak directly to a ranger or remain anonymous when reporting these activities.

There are two exceptions to the general prohibition. Limited recreational gold panning is allowed in the Whiskeytown unit of the Whiskeytown-Shasta-Trinity National Recreation Area in California, in accordance with regulations at 36 CFR § 7.91.

The second exception involves some Alaska park units, where surface collection by hand (including hand-held gold pans) and for personal recreational use only, of rocks and minerals (except for silver, platinum, gemstones, and fossils) is allowed in accordance with 36 CFR § 13.20(c). Shovels, pickaxes, sluice boxes, and dredges may not be used to collect these items. If collecting these resources is likely have a significant adverse impact on park resources or visitor enjoyment, the park superintendent will prohibit or restrict collection.

I can't imagine how anyone could be breaking a law by possessing or selling rocks that have tags saying they were collected in a National Park. If you didn't collect these rocks and you aren't in cahoots with someone who did then you aren't violating that regulation. Go ahead and sell them if you wish. I hope the new owner enjoys them.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Clay, good post.

.... If someone collected antiquities from federal lands before 1979 they, and the objects, are exempt from ARPA.

....

Well then, OF COURSE this is why all my old coins found on federal land, were found before 1979. Granted, I was still in Jr. High and High school at the time. But rest assured: They were all found when I was a kid

.... and coins are specifically excluded from the Antiquities Acts....

Here is where I'm going to have to disagree with you though: That coin exclusion is an oft-cited factor by md'rs. But I believe you are misunderstanding it. If you read it IN CONTEXT, it's only exempting those coins that are not historical archaeological resources. Not exempting "all coins". Trust me: If you found a 200 yr. old coin in NPS @ an archaeological site pit they were digging, they would indeed dispute this quote of yours:

....You may collect them if you find them...

 

[Bayoutalker]

Since these are obviously created to be sold and are probably not the only examples that exist is it not likely that the samples were collected with permission of the powers in charge at that time? Possibly under a contract of some kind? They may have actually been sold at the parks as souvenirs.

If that is the case, then they shouldn't be illegal to own or sell.