Are there 2 LDMs ?

[Idahodutch]

This question was confirmed for me, this past March.
There technically are still 2 mines. Both in same area….

The 1st mine was originally started by the Peraltas, and was the richest of the Peralta mines in there. It was the newly started mine that the Apache left open, shortly after the 1847 massacre, because is was naturally well hidden and high up.
It is the mine that had that the trail to it that used to be monumented, to show the way.

The 2nd mine is located down below the very rich Peralta mine, and was started in 1863, in one account, by Waltz and Weiser.
Story has it, when Waltz and Weiser were first reaching the mine site, there were people working the Peralta mine, and as Wsltz and Weiser quietly assented the ravine, up towards the top where workers were, they crawled over an outcrop, to get better position and shot all the workers.
After time of assessment, including investigating the Peralta mine, which was now at a depth of around 75’ deep, decided to check out what they saw on the outcrop they crawled over earlier.
The gold from the outcrop was extremely rich, and was more gold than quartz.
Their plan then was to work a couple weeks to get what they could, and come back later.

So, we found the gold deposit that’s from the outcrop location using ground radar device. The distance from the gold deposit to the hidden camp in shallow cave is ….
Not more than 200’ …… DIRECTLY ACROSS from the hidden camp.

In reviewing reasons why Waltz and Weiser decided to start a new dig, instead of just working the Peralta mine, especially when they only planned to stay a couple weeks is telling me, they felt they could get more gold out of the ground in 2 weeks, from the spot below, versus an active very rich gold mine up above.

So what happened to the piles of gold ore the Mexicans had already pulled out that trip?
Did Waltz and Weiser each make a cache with it, or together make 2 caches, from that ore.

To me, why not just take that and leave?
But no, they stayed and started the mine.
Waltz left to replace supplies and upon return, found Weiser dead, killed by Apache.
By this time the mine was now a tunnel, so Wsltz put Weiser’s body down in the tunnel, and covered up the mine, then put a BIG cache on top of the sealed up mine, and then covered the whole thing to erase all trace of them being there.
What would he use to cover the whole thing, to leave no trace?
Only thing there is rocks, briars, and cacti.

Anyway, I think Waltz put ore from the new mine onto the top of it. What all was left over from packing up his mule with ore.

So logically we have 2 sources of LDM gold ore. The SUPER rich stuff, more gold than quartz, was the first load of gold Waltz took out.
The other two caches ….. would have been where the gold from under his bed came from. What was left after retrieving the 2nd cache in approx 1884.

The jewelry made from LDM ore, was from what was left under the bed.

Others may believe differently than me, and that’s up to them. If somebody is in dire need …. Don’t let me hold you back….. remember millionaires of 20 men …. When gold was about $20 an ounce.
The cache on top is supposedly $75,000 when gold was about $20 an ounce….
That’s about $7 million today, just for the cache.

As I said, I doubt I will be able to make another trip. Not being dramatic, just honest.

PS …. The deposit was covered up by a 40’ diameter pile of rocks.
The deposit, is almost center of the pile, but is deeper than the cache.

I was hoping to make it out and confirm absolutely, the presence of the 2nd deposit up above also, but that’s a big if for getting out there to do it.

I was given a couple extra trips than what I thought, and I don’t think there could have been better things to see, than the remnants of the hidden camp, and the gold deposit not 200’ from it. 😁

The other reason I probably won’t make it, would be on purpose.
I know myself enough, and I can tell you, if I go out there again …. I will dig it up… or die in process.
I tried last trip, and wore out all the fingertips of a brand new, heavy duty, very thick, leather gloves …. In about 3 hours, of chucking rocks off to the side.
So a hole is started…. And that’s the spot.

I have enjoyed the search immensely, and hope others do too,
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

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[Idahodutch]

Ps, shovels and picks are no good on a pile of loose rocks. It is by hand till you get to logs, then a pick or crow bar might come in handy 😁

 

[Idahodutch]

One more tidbit, booby trap ….
My personal opinion, is that the big pile of rocks is definitely a body trap. It almost got me twice during my 3 hour tour 🥹

My plan was to get more hands to help, and start at the top of the pile ….. furthest up the ravine, and start removing all loose rock. Work carefully on down the pile, until reaching my starting spot from last time.

Danger of being crushed by rock slides would then be greatly diminished.

Take care, I’d feel pretty bad had I not mentioned this caution….. is very real threat of life if careless.

 

[Idahodutch]

Ps, shovels and picks are no good on a pile of loose rocks. It is by hand till you get to logs, then a pick or crow bar might come in handy 😁

If using a shovel, too much energy is spent …. Size of loose rocks dictates at most , one rock per shovel throw…..
not very many tiny rocks. It isn’t a giant pile of gravel.
That’s why I say it is a job that will require strong fingers, and persistence.
I have not physically recovered yet, from our last trip earlier this year.
In my mind ….. is it considered digging in a wilderness area, if someone is just moving some rocks, that someone else previously piled up?

Still wrestling with that thought….. and it may not matter what we think is considered digging, and what isn’t… not to who it matters.

 

[ancientones]

This question was confirmed for me, this past March.
There technically are still 2 mines. Both in same area….

The 1st mine was originally started by the Peraltas, and was the richest of the Peralta mines in there. It was the newly started mine that the Apache left open, shortly after the 1847 massacre, because is was naturally well hidden and high up.
It is the mine that had that the trail to it that used to be monumented, to show the way.

The 2nd mine is located down below the very rich Peralta mine, and was started in 1863, in one account, by Waltz and Weiser.
Story has it, when Waltz and Weiser were first reaching the mine site, there were people working the Peralta mine, and as Wsltz and Weiser quietly assented the ravine, up towards the top where workers were, they crawled over an outcrop, to get better position and shot all the workers.
After time of assessment, including investigating the Peralta mine, which was now at a depth of around 75’ deep, decided to check out what they saw on the outcrop they crawled over earlier.
The gold from the outcrop was extremely rich, and was more gold than quartz.
Their plan then was to work a couple weeks to get what they could, and come back later.

So, we found the gold deposit that’s from the outcrop location using ground radar device. The distance from the gold deposit to the hidden camp in shallow cave is ….
Not more than 200’ …… DIRECTLY ACROSS from the hidden camp.

In reviewing reasons why Waltz and Weiser decided to start a new dig, instead of just working the Peralta mine, especially when they only planned to stay a couple weeks is telling me, they felt they could get more gold out of the ground in 2 weeks, from the spot below, versus an active very rich gold mine up above.

So what happened to the piles of gold ore the Mexicans had already pulled out that trip?
Did Waltz and Weiser each make a cache with it, or together make 2 caches, from that ore.

To me, why not just take that and leave?
But no, they stayed and started the mine.
Waltz left to replace supplies and upon return, found Weiser dead, killed by Apache.
By this time the mine was now a tunnel, so Wsltz put Weiser’s body down in the tunnel, and covered up the mine, then put a BIG cache on top of the sealed up mine, and then covered the whole thing to erase all trace of them being there.
What would he use to cover the whole thing, to leave no trace?
Only thing there is rocks, briars, and cacti.

Anyway, I think Waltz put ore from the new mine onto the top of it. What all was left over from packing up his mule with ore.

So logically we have 2 sources of LDM gold ore. The SUPER rich stuff, more gold than quartz, was the first load of gold Waltz took out.
The other two caches ….. would have been where the gold from under his bed came from. What was left after retrieving the 2nd cache in approx 1884.

The jewelry made from LDM ore, was from what was left under the bed.

Others may believe differently than me, and that’s up to them. If somebody is in dire need …. Don’t let me hold you back….. remember millionaires of 20 men …. When gold was about $20 an ounce.
The cache on top is supposedly $75,000 when gold was about $20 an ounce….
That’s about $7 million today, just for the cache.

As I said, I doubt I will be able to make another trip. Not being dramatic, just honest.

PS …. The deposit was covered up by a 40’ diameter pile of rocks.
The deposit, is almost center of the pile, but is deeper than the cache.

I was hoping to make it out and confirm absolutely, the presence of the 2nd deposit up above also, but that’s a big if for getting out there to do it.

I was given a couple extra trips than what I thought, and I don’t think there could have been better things to see, than the remnants of the hidden camp, and the gold deposit not 200’ from it. 😁

The other reason I probably won’t make it, would be on purpose.
I know myself enough, and I can tell you, if I go out there again …. I will dig it up… or die in process.
I tried last trip, and wore out all the fingertips of a brand new, heavy duty, very thick, leather gloves …. In about 3 hours, of chucking rocks off to the side.
So a hole is started…. And that’s the spot.

I have enjoyed the search immensely, and hope others do too,
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

Idaho Dutch, I am a Lost Dutchman Mine hunter, but am a clue and puzzle solver, I don't know rocks.
We each have good stories and I want to share mine. When Jacob Waltz died, he told his clues to 2 cowboy friends, Julia Thomas was away fetching the Dr. When they returned he had already passed.
In 1910, a story about this mine ran in the local newspaper and this clue: 'it lies within a 5 mile circle, with Weavers Needle at its center, a volcanic peak...' This clue, per the reporter, came from Julia some years earlier, when he
spoke to her. So, the cowboys would have disclosed this to Julia, to the reporter to put in a paper in 1910. You then
have an additional clue, 'Weavers Needle is due South'. He was not a stupid man nor senile at the end-so why
say inside a circle that could put it in any direction when he said Weavers was South? How would you know what is accurate unless you check them all, including if the clue was 'it lies within a 5 mile circle of Weavers Needle'. Would
open a whole new search zone for the 'caches' I would think.
I have made 3 treks to a spot in the Superstitions, and am amazed that so many of the clues(Indian, Mexican, and the others), just as described, in the locations as described, are here. 60+?
You cannot obtain a treasure trove permit in an 'Az Wilderness', unless the Tonto Forest Service, who admins. the Sup. Wilderness, recently changed their policy. About 30? yrs ago a group obtained a permit to excavate for the mine, had to have an 'archeologist' observe, and turned out to be a Spanish well. I spent years trying to track this group down with 1 that responded but not interested to see my material. This is the REAL challenge.
You know any Archeologist up for
Here is a picture of the 'tunnel' that gets you and the pack mules from the trail below up onto the ledge.

 

[Idahodutch]

Hello ancient ones,
That’s a good story, thanks for sharing 😀.
The tunnel you found ….. you hiked through it?

It sounds very interesting.
The story you saw from archives of 1910 local paper, sounds like was maybe a reprint of a January 1895 article from the San Francisco Chronicle, by P.C. Bicknell.

The 2 cowboys at the deathbed of Waltz, were Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts. Many decades later, a manuscript came out called the Holmes manuscript, and contains the deathbed stuff.
The 5 mile diameter would have been from Waltz to Julia to Bicknell.
Julia was taking care of Waltz before he died. So we have 2 main sets of clues….. then there are more.
I am not a geologist, nor an archaeologist 😵‍💫.
I am a clues guy too. 👍

 

[rk85044]

Idaho Dutch, I am a Lost Dutchman Mine hunter, but am a clue and puzzle solver, I don't know rocks.
We each have good stories and I want to share mine. When Jacob Waltz died, he told his clues to 2 cowboy friends, Julia Thomas was away fetching the Dr. When they returned he had already passed.
In 1910, a story about this mine ran in the local newspaper and this clue: 'it lies within a 5 mile circle, with Weavers Needle at its center, a volcanic peak...' This clue, per the reporter, came from Julia some years earlier, when he
spoke to her. So, the cowboys would have disclosed this to Julia, to the reporter to put in a paper in 1910. You then
have an additional clue, 'Weavers Needle is due South'. He was not a stupid man nor senile at the end-so why
say inside a circle that could put it in any direction when he said Weavers was South? How would you know what is accurate unless you check them all, including if the clue was 'it lies within a 5 mile circle of Weavers Needle'. Would
open a whole new search zone for the 'caches' I would think.
I have made 3 treks to a spot in the Superstitions, and am amazed that so many of the clues(Indian, Mexican, and the others), just as described, in the locations as described, are here. 60+?
You cannot obtain a treasure trove permit in an 'Az Wilderness', unless the Tonto Forest Service, who admins. the Sup. Wilderness, recently changed their policy. About 30? yrs ago a group obtained a permit to excavate for the mine, had to have an 'archeologist' observe, and turned out to be a Spanish well. I spent years trying to track this group down with 1 that responded but not interested to see my material. This is the REAL challenge.
You know any Archeologist up for
Here is a picture of the 'tunnel' that gets you and the pack mules from the trail below up onto the ledge.

View attachment 2062794

Ancientones I would like to discuss some findings which you wrote about
….I sent a dm to you.. thank you
Rk85044

 

[ancientones]

Idaho Dutch, I am a Lost Dutchman Mine hunter, but am a clue and puzzle solver, I don't know rocks.
We each have good stories and I want to share mine. When Jacob Waltz died, he told his clues to 2 cowboy friends, Julia Thomas was away fetching the Dr. When they returned he had already passed.
In 1910, a story about this mine ran in the local newspaper and this clue: 'it lies within a 5 mile circle, with Weavers Needle at its center, a volcanic peak...' This clue, per the reporter, came from Julia some years earlier, when he
spoke to her. So, the cowboys would have disclosed this to Julia, to the reporter to put in a paper in 1910. You then
have an additional clue, 'Weavers Needle is due South'. He was not a stupid man nor senile at the end-so why
say inside a circle that could put it in any direction when he said Weavers was South? How would you know what is accurate unless you check them all, including if the clue was 'it lies within a 5 mile circle of Weavers Needle'. Would
open a whole new search zone for the 'caches' I would think.
I have made 3 treks to a spot in the Superstitions, and am amazed that so many of the clues(Indian, Mexican, and the others), just as described, in the locations as described, are here. 60+?
You cannot obtain a treasure trove permit in an 'Az Wilderness', unless the Tonto Forest Service, who admins. the Sup. Wilderness, recently changed their policy. About 30? yrs ago a group obtained a permit to excavate for the mine, had to have an 'archeologist' observe, and turned out to be a Spanish well. I spent years trying to track this group down with 1 that responded but not interested to see my material. This is the REAL challenge.
You know any Archeologist up for
Here is a picture of the 'tunnel' that gets you and the pack mules from the trail below up onto the ledge.

View attachment 2062794

Idaho Dutch,
Thanks for the reply. Yes, on the South side of the ledge. I have 100 plus pics with All the clues-the legit ones anyway. Some obvious other clues not known-mainly Mexican. My hope is you(or others that may see this) may know of anyone involved in this excavation of an Old Spanish Well, thought to be the mine, in the Sups. about 30 years ago. A permit was obtained from the Forest Service. I have been down the road on this 20 years and 'appears' I cannot 'validate' this myself, any 'ore' brought out by me could be called a 'cache' and without a permit could not be 'dug'. Like I say, I need the assistance at this point. Like you, my trips are numbered and nothing more I can do out there. Like I say, I need the assistance at this point so will see what happens
The Dutchman clues were short and precise, he was dying. To say Weavers Needle was South, and then 'any'
direction by saying 'within a 5 mi circle with Weavers at its center' made me 'question' this clue. Since everyone
has been 2 1/2 miles North of Weavers, and just a clue or 2 seems to be all that can be found, I went to 5. The Dutchman had several clues, but the Mexcan/Indian clues are fairly detailed about the site. I have also been
advised that this is 'The Sombrero Mine', not the LDM because of the location, but the clues are here, as described, in the location described. Again, because of a clue saying Weavers at its center.
If you have a specific clue, let me know.

The red dashes are the trail, this was taken at the site. A Mexican clue states: 'there are 3 Monuments at the mine, a Crescent, a Triangle and a Circle'. A monument is a stone on top of a stone.

 

[Idahodutch]

Ancient ones,
If you read that Jan 1895 article with the 5 mile diameter ….
I have to say, I don’t think that’s one of Waltz’s clues, rather Bicknell’s assessment.
The account given by “the woman”, starts later on in the article, well after the 5 mile diameter statement. That’s only my opinion.

When you say … if I have a specific clue, to let you know.
Do you mean, at my spot of interest, or yours? 🤗

 

[ancientones]

Hello ancient ones,
That’s a good story, thanks for sharing 😀.
The tunnel you found ….. you hiked through it?

It sounds very interesting.
The story you saw from archives of 1910 local paper, sounds like was maybe a reprint of a January 1895 article from the San Francisco Chronicle, by P.C. Bicknell.

The 2 cowboys at the deathbed of Waltz, were Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts. Many decades later, a manuscript came out called the Holmes manuscript, and contains the deathbed stuff.
The 5 mile diameter would have been from Waltz to Julia to Bicknell.
Julia was taking care of Waltz before he died. So we have 2 main sets of clues….. then there are more.
I am not a geologist, nor an archaeologist 😵‍💫.
I am a clues guy too. 👍

Idaho Dutch
This is the 'top' when you exit the tunnel. The dashes are the trail. I was looking for a 'frying pan'-the 3 arrows.
Notice this 'trail marker' way up on top of this ledge. There is a spot just left of the trail here, 2 natural rocks form
a crypt, dirt in the middle. This would fit for where his partner is buried-just my thoughts. The next pic is this trail continuing around the top of the 'funnel shaped pit', and down to the mine. 'You must go up, to go down to the mine'. There is a clue that advises of 3 white square(or rectangle-depending on story) rocks above the mine.
This would also be the area he let the animals graze.
*apologies, pics are reversed and can't fix

 

[ancientones]

Ancient ones,
If you read that Jan 1895 article with the 5 mile diameter ….
I have to say, I don’t think that’s one of Waltz’s clues, rather Bicknell’s assessment.
The account given by “the woman”, starts later on in the article, well after the 5 mile diameter statement. That’s only my opinion.

When you say … if I have a specific clue, to let you know.
Do you mean, at my spot of interest, or yours? 🤗

Idaho Dutch,
If you are talking the caches, I would advise to put your starting point for the mine at 5 mi North of Weavers.
Then, where do the clues lead from here. As for the mine, what would get your attention-other than gold showing

 

[Idahodutch]

Ancientones,
I’m sure that everybody would like to see what all there is that has you believing that it is the LDM, and not a different mine?

I mean no offense, but I have not heard of the clue you mentioned about the three monuments. If it is the LDM, then the clues from Waltz, would be the ones that might get folk’s attention 🤗

 

[ancientones]

Ancientones,
I’m sure that everybody would like to see what all there is that has you believing that it is the LDM, and not a different mine?

I mean no offense, but I have not heard of the clue you mentioned about the three monuments. If it is the LDM, then the clues from Waltz, would be the ones that might get folk’s attention 🤗

Idaho Dutch,
To be clear, no one can find his mine with just his clues. There is nothing that advises a distance.
Lets say a LDM clue was 'it lies within a 5 mi circle of Weavers Needle', and I go 'true' North 4.98 mi., I am on the 'ledge'. This is on the East side of Peters Canyon, which flows 'North to South' at this point. On this ledge the mine is on, from a high point on the ledge you can see Weavers 'true South'. You can see/verify this on google earth or topo maps.
I sent you a pic of the tunnel on the South side of the ledge-I have pics entering from the bottom of the tunnel and the trail. Attached is a pic of the bottom of the 'funnel shaped pit'-goes with the previous 2 pics.. Notice how the sides 'curve' in to form a 'funnel' at the bottom. The purple dashes are the Dutchmans route down from the tunnel, 'you must go up(to get on the ledge) to go down'(into the pit and the mine). The red dashes are a Mexican foot trail onto the ledge. Notice the 'dark' mineralization, this 'vein' runs 400 ft across the ledge(2nd pic). The blue arrow is the 'waterfall' below the mine. I believe this waterfall 'runoff' continuing down is the 'wash' he was finding/panning gold in.
My research for this mine(Indians, Mexican, LDM and others) reflects the Mexican miners were mining South of Tortilla Wash and East of Peters canyon. I think the LDM vein was then discovered-their Sombrero Mine. Az. became US territory, and they had to leave. It was so rich a mine some Mexicans 'illegally' took the risk to come mine it, and Jacob caught/saw them and sent them packing or shot them. Either way, he had his mine.

 

[ancientones]

Ancientones I would like to discuss some findings which you wrote about
….I sent a dm to you.. thank you
Rk85044

Hello Rk-sent you an email so let me know if can help.

 

[Idahodutch]

Ancientones,
You have found an interesting spot. There are lots of interesting spots in those mountains, for sure.

For someone to claim they have found the LDM, and truly expect folk to take them seriously, then they are going to need to prove it. 🥺😵‍💫
Good luck my friend 👍😄

 

[ancientones]

Ancientones,
You have found an interesting spot. There are lots of interesting spots in those mountains, for sure.

For someone to claim they have found the LDM, and truly expect folk to take them seriously, then they are going to need to prove it. 🥺😵‍💫
Good luck my friend 👍😄

Idaho Dutch,
My claim is not the LDM, my claim is The Mexican 'Sombrero' Mine. This is the mine referenced on the 'heart'
inlay stone of the Peralta Stones. The top line being Tortilla Wash, the lower line Peters Canyon-lines right up.
Is this the mine the Dutchman obtained? In my Opinion-yes-my opinion only. With all the info out there by others(indians, mex. miners, solders,) describing this mine in detail, for a reason, is hard for me to believe he found a different mine that matches his clues to a T, at this site. If I were to get into the mine and take a photo of a gold vein and post it(I do not have this ): It would be called a fake, and I would get a visit from the Forest Service on where it was found and how it was obtained. This needs a group with an Arch. to satisfy the Forest Service requirement to allow a permit to verify anything.
Once you go up onto the ledge, around the top of the funnel shaped pit, and down the other side, you enter the pit from the side. This is a pic as you enter the pit from this side. LOTS of stuff here, but some standouts:
There is a white waist high square rock with an oblong corner.
There is a crack or crevice with whitish rock on one side, a 2 ft gap, and then a 'rose' quartz side(this side of the white square rock). There are 'several' places the rose quartz had been pick axed. IF a mine was in this crevice, you would have to crawl into it, and you would see nothing but open when you exit-it is on the edge of a cliff/ledge.
On the right side of the pic is a whitish colored overhang. There is a rock, shaped like an arrow, pointing to the mine 80 Ft? away. The sun is making this arrow stand out. With an eyeglass, which the miners had, you could see this arrow from the trail that comes into the site.

 

[Idahodutch]

Hello Ancientones,
I don’t know what to say, other than good luck my friend.
I really hope you find a way to fruition on this, I just don’t see how I can be of help for you on it 🥹

 

[ancientones]

Ancientones,
You have found an interesting spot. There are lots of interesting spots in those mountains, for sure.

For someone to claim they have found the LDM, and truly expect folk to take them seriously, then they are going to need to prove it. 🥺😵‍💫
Good luck my friend 👍😄

Idaho Dutch,
I appreciate your responses and hope I am providing info that may assist you. I am not a 'cache' guy, but if I were, I would 'relook' at those clues using this site as the mine, and does it 'change' anything?

 

[ancientones]

Idaho Dutch,
I appreciate your responses and hope I am providing info that may assist you. I am not a 'cache' guy, but if I were, I would 'relook' at those clues using this site as the mine, and does it 'change' anything?

Idaho Dutch,
I appreciate your responses and hope I am providing info that may assist you. I am not a 'cache' guy, but if I were, I would 'relook' at those clues using this site as the mine, and does it 'change' anything?

And my apologies-IF I can assist you with your quest, I am happy to assist you

 

[Idahodutch]

And my apologies-IF I can assist you with your quest, I am happy to assist you

Thanks Ancientones,
My quest is almost done now.
I will share some info, that is not secret.

There were three caches by Waltz.
He retrieved 2 of them.

The last one is buried on top of the LDM mine, by Waltz’ himself.
The other two caches were in the vicinity of the mine.

Take care and good hunting 😉