Buckle or plate ?

[ticm]

Dug this up this am. It was pretty deep at around eight or ten inches. I found it at the same site I found a couple of old coppers. (see below listed post on this fourm). Before I cleaned off the dirt there was still hunks of old leather in the back hooks. I think I have seen somthing like this on the forum but can't remember for sure. Has anyone seen this before and know what it was used for and maybe when. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,457284.0.html

 

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[duggap]

Not sure of what it is, but I don't think it is a plate as there would be no way to adjust the belt.

 

[CC Hunter]

The general consensus has been that these brass plates with 6 prong attachments, are from Colonial period leather covered trunks. Over the years collectors have often debated the belt plate versus trunk plate topic. These mystery pieces have not been accurately attributed either way to my knowledge. While they are certainly encountered with relative frequency being dug from period sites, we have yet to see a non-dug example attached to it's original piece, thereby providing positive proof of function. I've dug a few myself from period house sites. None that I have seen, have ever been found in context with finds past the 1820's or so. Georgian period, rather than Victorian is an accurate description.

CC Hunter

 

[Breezie]

Is something written on the front? Breezie

 

[CRUSADER]

The general consensus has been that these brass plates with 6 prong attachments, are from Colonial period leather covered trunks. Over the years collectors have often debated the belt plate versus trunk plate topic. These mystery pieces have not been accurately attributed either way to my knowledge. While they are certainly encountered with relative frequency being dug from period sites, we have yet to see a non-dug example attached to it's original piece, thereby providing positive proof of function. I've dug a few myself from period house sites. None that I have seen, have ever been found in context with finds past the 1820's or so. Georgian period, rather than Victorian is an accurate description.

CC Hunter

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showrecords.php?product=6464&cat=all
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showrecords.php?product=13543&cat=all
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showrecords.php?product=14208&cat=all
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showrecords.php?product=25227&cat=all

I don't go along with either theory of the belt or trunk. We don't need much debate to prove the belt/buckle theory out of the water & the trunk holds very little water either. None of these trunk plates have turned up with any kind of incised name, which you would expect for an expensive trunk with a brass plate. The general rule on name plates including the silver versions is that more turn up with monograms than without (blank). However, there is far more evidence that these went on leather on horses. 80% of horse brass/blinkers turn up blank & only a few turn up with writing or initials (but we have evidence of both). The timeline of these, specially as its a crude version, may go back to the late 1700s but most of these are 19th C.

 

[ticm]

Is something written on the front? Breezie
[/quote



No nothing

 

[CC Hunter]

I don't go along with either theory of the belt or trunk. We don't need much debate to prove the belt/buckle theory out of the water & the trunk holds very little water either. None of these trunk plates have turned up with any kind of incised name, which you would expect for an expensive trunk with a brass plate. The general rule on name plates including the silver versions is that more turn up with monograms than without (blank). However, there is far more evidence that these went on leather on horses. 80% of horse brass/blinkers turn up blank & only a few turn up with writing or initials (but we have evidence of both). The timeline of these, specially as its a crude version, may go back to the late 1700s but most of these are 19th C

Crusader,

While the jury may still be out on the actual function and application for these mystery brass plates, usually found with six attachment prongs or bent hooks, I will venture with a rather emphatic debate point that these are in no way Victorian era in the style we see posted at the top of this thread.

There is actually a similarity noted on the links you have posted of UK finds. Is there any provenance of these shown in use as described, in period photos? Surely with an item dating to the later 19th century, or early 20th century, there will be surviving photos of some sort, showing use as horse related hardware. How about catalog listings, with detailed drawn examples?

All the ones I have personally recovered, as well as those found by associates, and furthermore those posted on forums being found in Eastern America, have all been found entirely in context with Colonial period items, dating no later than about the 1820's or so. The one above was posted as being found on a site with a 1786 Nova Constellatio copper coin.

Additionally, in the areas of the United States, west of the Rocky Mountains (where many of my acquaintances have been actively searching sites for well over 25 years), Not One Single Example of these brass plates with six hooks has ever been seen or found. The earliest active settlements of any notable European related population, date from about the 1840's onward in the Western American states. In these post-1840 sites, military & civilian relics, coins dating to the 1820's and earlier, and boxes full of every horse related item imaginable have been found, including rosettes, spurs, stirrups, strap buckles, bits, etc.., (not to mention a truck load of horse shoes, oxen shoes, and mule shoes). If these mystery items were indeed Victorian era (1837-1901), and horse related, surely we would encounter at least one excavated example in our post-1840 Western America sites?

CC Hunter

 

[CRUSADER]

I don't go along with either theory of the belt or trunk. We don't need much debate to prove the belt/buckle theory out of the water & the trunk holds very little water either. None of these trunk plates have turned up with any kind of incised name, which you would expect for an expensive trunk with a brass plate. The general rule on name plates including the silver versions is that more turn up with monograms than without (blank). However, there is far more evidence that these went on leather on horses. 80% of horse brass/blinkers turn up blank & only a few turn up with writing or initials (but we have evidence of both). The timeline of these, specially as its a crude version, may go back to the late 1700s but most of these are 19th C

Crusader,

While the jury may still be out on the actual function and application for these mystery brass plates, usually found with six attachment prongs or bent hooks, I will venture with a rather emphatic debate point that these are in no way Victorian era in the style we see posted at the top of this thread.

There is actually a similarity noted on the links you have posted of UK finds. Is there any provenance of these shown in use as described, in period photos? Surely with an item dating to the later 19th century, or early 20th century, there will be surviving photos of some sort, showing use as horse related hardware. How about catalog listings, with detailed drawn examples?

All the ones I have personally recovered, as well as those found by associates, and furthermore those posted on forums being found in Eastern America, have all been found entirely in context with Colonial period items, dating no later than about the 1820's or so. The one above was posted as being found on a site with a 1786 Nova Constellatio copper coin.

Additionally, in the areas of the United States, west of the Rocky Mountains (where many of my acquaintances have been actively searching sites for well over 25 years), Not One Single Example of these brass plates with six hooks has ever been seen or found. The earliest active settlements of any notable European related population, date from about the 1840's onward in the Western American states. In these post-1840 sites, military & civilian relics, coins dating to the 1820's and earlier, and boxes full of every horse related item imaginable have been found, including rosettes, spurs, stirrups, strap buckles, bits, etc.., (not to mention a truck load of horse shoes, oxen shoes, and mule shoes). If these mystery items were indeed Victorian era (1837-1901), and horse related, surely we would encounter at least one excavated example in our post-1840 Western America sites?

CC Hunter

Don't need a cat. many are still used at horse shows today, & these were used into the 1940s. No arguement that they went on horse. I agree, its possible late 1700s but it is for horse, which is obivious.

 

[ticm]

I have never seen this type of object on a saddle. Which by the way means nothing, not to many cowboys in Jersey. Anybody seen a picture of this used in a horse related manner?

 

[CRUSADER]

I have never seen this type of object on a saddle. Which by the way means nothing, not to many cowboys in Jersey. Anybody seen a picture of this used in a horse related manner?

Who said saddle
(nothing to do with Cowboys)
So the land you search or nearby land has never been ploughed by horse? or had a horse carry stuff from one place to another? or had a horse drawn carriage transport people or goods?

 

[ticm]

I have never seen this type of object on a saddle. Which by the way means nothing, not to many cowboys in Jersey. Anybody seen a picture of this used in a horse related manner?

Who said saddle
(nothing to do with Cowboys)
So the land you search or nearby land has never been ploughed by horse? or had a horse carry stuff from one place to another? or had a horse drawn carriage transport people or goods?

OK, I see that poor old horse with a bunch of gear strapped to it. Where would This copper retangle thing go? I see somthing on those blinders. Is that what you think it is? In the links you provided above it listed saddle and harness items.

 

[CC Hunter]

ticm,

Crusader listed in his post and links to the UK finds showing rectangular brass objects, where they were referring to these items as "blinkers" (blinker is another term for what Americans usually call blinders, and "blinker" is possibly more common in British conversational English).

The decorative brass plate on the leather blinker worn by the draft horse in the photo provided by Crusader, is very similar to the 4 prong radius cornered plates shown as being found in UK sites. All we need now, is a Colonial period (pre-1820) photograph, of one of the 6 prong rectangular plates, in use as a blinker, and I'll be 100% convinced.

I do feel we are finally gaining some insight into these mysterious brass "trunk" plates. Hey, how about elephant blinkers? Then we might really have "trunk plates"!

CC Hunter

 

[Silver Searcher]

ticm,

Crusader listed in his post and links to the UK finds showing rectangular brass objects, where they were referring to these items as "blinkers" (blinker is another term for what Americans usually call blinders, and "blinker" is possibly more common in British conversational English).

The decorative brass plate on the leather blinker worn by the draft horse in the photo provided by Crusader, is very similar to the 4 prong radius cornered plates shown as being found in UK sites. All we need now, is a Colonial period (pre-1820) photograph, of one of the 6 prong rectangular plates, in use as a blinker, and I'll be 100% convinced.

I do feel we are finally gaining some insight into these mysterious brass "trunk" plates. Hey, how about elephant blinkers? Then we might really have "trunk plates"!

CC Hunter

What were these Brass trunk plates used for as they are square, there doesn't seem to be much function, outher than a name plate, yet they seems to be no markings on this one. Almost certain that this went to leather...but for what

SS

 

[CRUSADER]

ticm,

Crusader listed in his post and links to the UK finds showing rectangular brass objects, where they were referring to these items as "blinkers" (blinker is another term for what Americans usually call blinders, and "blinker" is possibly more common in British conversational English).

The decorative brass plate on the leather blinker worn by the draft horse in the photo provided by Crusader, is very similar to the 4 prong radius cornered plates shown as being found in UK sites. All we need now, is a Colonial period (pre-1820) photograph, of one of the 6 prong rectangular plates, in use as a blinker, and I'll be 100% convinced.

I do feel we are finally gaining some insight into these mysterious brass "trunk" plates. Hey, how about elephant blinkers? Then we might really have "trunk plates"!

CC Hunter

So colonial people had trunks plates with no names or monograms & no ploughs with their horses (hard to make a living from the land & show your status/ownership with your flashy BLANK brass plate)

 

[CRUSADER]

ticm,

Crusader listed in his post and links to the UK finds showing rectangular brass objects, where they were referring to these items as "blinkers" (blinker is another term for what Americans usually call blinders, and "blinker" is possibly more common in British conversational English).

The decorative brass plate on the leather blinker worn by the draft horse in the photo provided by Crusader, is very similar to the 4 prong radius cornered plates shown as being found in UK sites. All we need now, is a Colonial period (pre-1820) photograph, of one of the 6 prong rectangular plates, in use as a blinker, and I'll be 100% convinced.

I do feel we are finally gaining some insight into these mysterious brass "trunk" plates. Hey, how about elephant blinkers? Then we might really have "trunk plates"!

CC Hunter

What were these Brass trunk plates used for as they are square, there doesn't seem to be much function, outher than a name plate, yet they seems to be no markings on this one. Almost certain that this went to leather...but for what

SS

Agreed, many have been found & none with writing or initials. The poster said it was found with leather attached & we all know that these prongs are used to attach it to leather. So there are logically 3 options; Horse, Man, Object. Pick the one that had the most weight of evidence. (not you personally) Most, with experience would say - horse....

 

[ticm]

So what I have here is just another hunk of crap for the scrap bucket

 

[CRUSADER]

So what I have here is just another hunk of crap for the scrap bucket

No-one said that, its most likely circa 1800 (give or take, maybe later) horse leather decoration, or a unsolved mystery, your choice. But research down the horse direction will give you more joy than a trunk

 

[CC Hunter]

So colonial people had trunks plates with no names or monograms & no ploughs with their horses (hard to make a living from the land & show your status/ownership with your flashy BLANK brass plate) laughing9

SS,

Pardon the misunderstanding, as I'm not saying here that these are Colonial trunk plates either. My main debate was that the one originally posted at the top, was most definitely Colonial period "something", rather than Victorian period.

I thought the Elephant Blinker (for an elephant trunk) was rather funny. Guess I need to work on my joke material a bit more.

You know SS, possibly all this talk of horse "blinkers" is confusing the American readers here, as they might be of a mind we are talking about turn signals on a horse!

CC

 

[Silver Searcher]

So colonial people had trunks plates with no names or monograms & no ploughs with their horses (hard to make a living from the land & show your status/ownership with your flashy BLANK brass plate) laughing9

SS,

Pardon the misunderstanding, as I'm not saying here that these are Colonial trunk plates either. My main debate was that the one originally posted at the top, was most definitely Colonial period "something", rather than Victorian period.

I thought the Elephant Blinker (for an elephant trunk) was rather funny. Guess I need to work on my joke material a bit more.

You know SS, possibly all this talk of horse "blinkers" is confusing the American readers here, as they might be of a mind we are talking about turn signals on a horse!

CC

I never said there were blinkers, I just said they went to leather...but all adds to the debate

SS

 

[ticm]

ticm,

Crusader listed in his post and links to the UK finds showing rectangular brass objects, where they were referring to these items as "blinkers" (blinker is another term for what Americans usually call blinders, and "blinker" is possibly more common in British conversational English).

The decorative brass plate on the leather blinker worn by the draft horse in the photo provided by Crusader, is very similar to the 4 prong radius cornered plates shown as being found in UK sites. All we need now, is a Colonial period (pre-1820) photograph, of one of the 6 prong rectangular plates, in use as a blinker, and I'll be 100% convinced.

I do feel we are finally gaining some insight into these mysterious brass "trunk" plates. Hey, how about elephant blinkers? Then we might really have "trunk plates"!

CC Hunter





OK then it's settled they are colonial elephant trunk blinkers.