but can you handle the truth ...?

[the blindbowman]

Ok you wanted the truth . here it is . web sites suck , the ego's get in the way of good research .... good luck i am out here ...

 

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[Cubfan64]

While I respect the fact that you feel you've found something of geological significance, even you must admit that a few blurry satellite photos don't amount to proof that you've found the Lost Dutchman Mine - I take that back, I'm sure you wouldn't admit that

Honestly, I truly do hope you've found something special - the idea of a dead hydrothermal vent located on a mountain doesn't seem all that shocking to me considering much of our land has at one time or another been under water and of course there has been a great deal of volcanic activity throughout time.

You're certainly correct that the structure around these may indeed have concentrations of rare earth elements in the form of sulfides or other compounds. I could also certainly see how the land around these formations could contain rich veins of valuable metals. It would not shock me at all that if the LDM does/did indeed exist, it would be located near a formation such as that.

I hope you get a chance to take some clear photos physically from the area in the near future - I'll be anxious to see what your formations look like close up.

I wish you luck and I look forward to reading your stories in Time Magazine and AZU Geological Dept. research papers and reports.

 

[cactusjumper]

Cubfan,

You must be smiling tonight. Can't believe we walked in the winning run.

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings mi amigo Blindbowman,

I hope your statements about your fellow T-net members do not mean all of us, I did not call you a "fool" or any names, and the only times your posts made me laugh were those which were intended to make a reader laugh (at least I believe so) as you have a very good sense of humor! Only a few members have been so unkind as to call you names, and such posts get the attention (that is they are generally ignored) they deserve. When you do occasionally spin off the subject into such things as the metaphysical/psychic/paranormal, I usually just skip past it as I do not understand what you are saying and have no comment to make in response. How can anyone truly and fully understand what another person experiences, unless they are capable of being within that person's skin and mind? Hence your ventures into another world are beyond my 'ken' as they used to say in the old, old days. In defense of those members who did cast some unkind words in your direction, remember that the statement ("I have found the Lost Dutchman Mine") is quite an astonishing claim and raises many an eyebrow - for there have been MANY persons who have made that claim, and in virtually all cases the claim was un-true. (I know of only a single case in which a person brought out gold ore which matched the ore of Waltz, and that person is dead.) Such a claim, to a Dutch-hunter, is about as astonishing and incredible as someone coming forward to claim that he or she has found the lost Atlantis, or the Fountain of Youth - it is certain to raise many questions from the people who read it, and many doubts are raised as a consequence. Then too, it appears that a good many of the "lol" type of posts were intended to be in humor, whether they were taken as such or not. Besides, anyone who goes out searching for buried treasures is considered just a wee bit crazy by the majority of the population, so if one is called "crazy" for hunting the LDM or any other treasure, you are indeed in good company!


A circle of trees planted around the mine does fit with what Wagoner (also spelled several different ways in various sources) as he said he had planted trees in a circle around the mine so he could easily find it again. His ore was of a rose quartz, which is unlike the ore of Waltz (a white quartz) or of Apache Jack (black quartz) yet was rich enough to set him up for life with only a few back-pack loads of it! Remember Wagoner did not have even a burro to haul his ore, he did all his packing on his back!

If what you have found is indeed Wagoner's gold ledge, you are truly set for life, all you need to do is get in to it and start packing it out. A volcanic deposit is very much within what should be expected to find in a volcanic mountain range, which is what the Superstitions are. Wagoner said he found his mine quite by accident, and made no mention that it was formerly anyone else's old mine, just an interesting ledge of pretty rose quartz that was shot through and through with gold - his own working of it would have been very minor, as he was working solely with hand tools and apparently not even with any kind of blasting (eg dynamite, blasting powder, nitro etc) so there probably would be a large amount of ore remaining! While it is possible that Wagoner found an old Spanish mine, but that does not fit with his description of a ledge of quartz that had not been worked by anyone previous to him.

I am no expert in geology but have studied it a bit in my interest in prospecting (it helps to know a bit in your prospecting, saves money on assays for example in NOT sending in samples of rock that definitely can not have any gold or silver) but I do believe that the term "smokers" as referring to volcanic hydrothermic vents is used only with under-sea deposits, and not in reference to volcanic vents above sea levels. However it is quite possible the Superstitions were below sea level when the vents were formed, so black smokers would be correct.

If you have found Wagoner's gold, I congratulate you and hope you are able to extricate enough gold to set yourself up comfortably for life. Mrs Oro and I have gone a-hunting Wagoner's gold a couple of times, but had zero luck in locating the key "clue" - the circle of trees, much less any of the rose quartz which ought to be seen down-hill of the mine in alluvial 'float'. I cannot determine from the photos if what you have found is Wagoner's mine or not, and would suggest that you not give too much detail in the correct location in any public forum, at least not before you have obtained enough gold to set yourself up. You will be able to tell for certain on your next expedition whether you have found Wagoner's lost gold ledge or not, and can bring out a good amount of ore if it is. Be prepared to spend some time at the site so as to have time to dig out some of the ore and sort it, with an eye to pack out only the best/richest ore.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

Cubfan,

You must be smiling tonight. Can't believe we walked in the winning run.

Joe

i would still welcome you on any expedition of mine and i under stand far more then you know CJ ..

this is a web site and i hold no ill well to anyone here or anywhere else ... in fact in many ways you have guided me more then you know ....na thats just good old BS i guess but i did enjoy our game and i hope we both win in a tie some day ...maybe when my cup is full i can come and use my gift to help others
.

i know, i know , your CJ you dont need my help , you take care my freind i have enjoyed your wisdom and enjoyed kicking dirt at you as much as you did at me .. as long as a hand shake still means something to both of us its all been in fun and learning ...

i can only set in amazement to wonder how lucky this site is to have you here for those that need guided futures , you do your self prode sir ...stay safe stay free

 

[the blindbowman]

While I respect the fact that you feel you've found something of geological significance, even you must admit that a few blurry satellite photos don't amount to proof that you've found the Lost Dutchman Mine - I take that back, I'm sure you wouldn't admit that

Honestly, I truly do hope you've found something special - the idea of a dead hydrothermal vent located on a mountain doesn't seem all that shocking to me considering much of our land has at one time or another been under water and of course there has been a great deal of volcanic activity throughout time.

You're certainly correct that the structure around these may indeed have concentrations of rare earth elements in the form of sulfides or other compounds. I could also certainly see how the land around these formations could contain rich veins of valuable metals. It would not shock me at all that if the LDM does/did indeed exist, it would be located near a formation such as that.

I hope you get a chance to take some clear photos physically from the area in the near future - I'll be anxious to see what your formations look like close up.

I wish you luck and I look forward to reading your stories in Time Magazine and AZU Geological Dept. research papers and reports.

i agree cub , the hydrothermal vents in the supersititions are common as dikes and plugs ,,, i confermed these by researching (The Eruptive History of the Peridot mesa vents ) east of the area , they did a full study of the lava flows and hydrothermal activey of this aera in there study and made no rellated statements to this type of vent in these areas ....
in fact there is a diffrence between these types of vent that can not be misteaken . one developes under pressure of ocean water and the other dose not ....the pressure of the ocean is far greater then you would think it would be ...

in this case we may see a time line for the great flood it self . because the vents had to happen when the water was there and they stoped venting when the water vanished ,maybe the earth crust changed and sealed them off so they could not fill with lava ..

ether way , we are seeing black smokers on land . the real term is dead black smokers or dorment black smokers , it could also show us what type of volcanic activity was takeing place at the time of the great flood in this area ...

the finding of the Peridot reseach stated "silicic lava flows and dikes , some quatz latite range from rhyolitic to basaltic" that research was done by the AZU and thats why i selected them to contact because they have a head start to under stand what these sites are and why they ended up at that location ...

at this piont i beleive the dutchman is one of these vents . it much like 3 card montie,,....lol

just to find these vents is welcome after what i have put into my research . i still have 39 other sites , but this one was , is what it is and the fact its there and dose fit some of the legends is a great frist step . i dont beleive many people could get to it where it is at but i can say there is a 6ooft stright drop close by ...

i almost found it the hard way ...

and yes when i can i will try to post pictures of this discovery in detail and of the expedition 3 ...

 

[Cubfan64]

Cubfan,

You must be smiling tonight. Can't believe we walked in the winning run.

Joe

Hehe, nah, call me crazy, but I rarely find enjoyment out of seeing a team that beats my beloved Cubs lose as well. Fact is, going into the playoffs I knew my team was easily the worst of all the teams in the playoffs - they're just not a well balanced team at all. Arizona played very well against them, our bats just never showed up against them and other than 1 guy, our starting pitchers also failed.

We got beat is all.

I honestly hope Arizona wins the series though because I think they match up better against the Red Sox than Colorado does - it's not over until it's over

 

[cactusjumper]

Cubfan,

Carolyn and I don't watch that much baseball, but we do watch the playoffs, especially if Arizona is involved. I prefer football and the NBA. Really feel like they should have pulled the pitcher much sooner. We were both yelling Pull him!, Pull him!, as soon as his arm started going south. I guess the just couldn't hear us.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

While I respect the fact that you feel you've found something of geological significance, even you must admit that a few blurry satellite photos don't amount to proof that you've found the Lost Dutchman Mine - I take that back, I'm sure you wouldn't admit that

Honestly, I truly do hope you've found something special - the idea of a dead hydrothermal vent located on a mountain doesn't seem all that shocking to me considering much of our land has at one time or another been under water and of course there has been a great deal of volcanic activity throughout time.

You're certainly correct that the structure around these may indeed have concentrations of rare earth elements in the form of sulfides or other compounds. I could also certainly see how the land around these formations could contain rich veins of valuable metals. It would not shock me at all that if the LDM does/did indeed exist, it would be located near a formation such as that.

I hope you get a chance to take some clear photos physically from the area in the near future - I'll be anxious to see what your formations look like close up.

I wish you luck and I look forward to reading your stories in Time Magazine and AZU Geological Dept. research papers and reports.

i agree cub , the hydrothermal vents in the supersititions are common as dikes and plugs ,,, i confermed these by researching (The Eruptive History of the Peridot mesa vents ) east of the area , they did a full study of the lava flows and hydrothermal activey of this aera in there study and made no rellated statements to this type of vent in these areas ....
in fact there is a diffrence between these types of vent that can not be misteaken . one developes under pressure of ocean water and the other dose not ....the pressure of the ocean is far greater then you would think it would be ...

in this case we may see a time line for the great flood it self . because the vents had to happen when the water was there and they stoped venting when the water vanished ,maybe the earth crust changed and sealed them off so they could not fill with lava ..

ether way , we are seeing black smokers on land . the real term is dead black smokers or dorment black smokers , it could also show us what type of volcanic activity was takeing place at the time of the great flood in this area ...

the finding of the Peridot reseach stated "silicic lava flows and dikes , some quatz latite range from rhyolitic to basaltic" that research was done by the AZU and thats why i selected them to contact because they have a head start to under stand what these sites are and why they ended up at that location ...

at this piont i beleive the dutchman is one of these vents . it much like 3 card montie,,....lol

just to find these vents is welcome after what i have put into my research . i still have 39 other sites , but this one was , is what it is and the fact its there and dose fit some of the legends is a great frist step . i dont beleive many people could get to it where it is at but i can say there is a 6ooft stright drop close by ...

i almost found it the hard way ...

and yes when i can i will try to post pictures of this discovery in detail and of the expedition 3 ...

One thing that strikes me is that in numerous references I've found native american legends/stories related to pits and/or holes deep in the bowels of the earth where ancestors "hid" at one time or another.

I find native american legends to be similar in many ways to parables and other stories in the Holy Bible - taken out of context, they aren't that easy to decipher and as "crazy" as many seem, the often have some basis in truth or at least in "truth" as the people saw it at that time.

That said, and considering your claims to have ties to native americans, have you considered that what you believe you've found could be a sacred site to what few native americans are left who hold to the old ways? I'm not sure what I would do in the same position, but considering who and what you believe you are, you may be on the verge of desecrating a sacred native american site. Just something to think about.

I'll be very curious to hear and see more from you regarding your finds here in the future. Good luck

 

[the blindbowman]

web sites are nothing but ego's . . i hope it rots out there for another 100 years . . i am out here ...

 

[Cubfan64]

web sites are nothing but ego's . . i hope it rots out there for another 100 years . . i am out here ...

Ummm, what the heck happened now?

 

[cactusjumper]

Cubfan,

I am not following bowman's side of the conversation, unless someone quotes him, but it would seem that his ego has been crushed. He is, however, correct about the ego thing. I assume that is why he is a.....poster.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

And as Pontius Pilate would say,
"What is truth?"

It pays to have a rather thick skin when indulging in verbal exchanges via the internet forums, and to keep a good sense of humor!

Oroblanco

 

[dustcap]

Bowman,

Am I to understand that you are in Phoenix when you say “I am out here”? If so, will you be at the ‘Annual LDM Rendezvous’ festivities Oct 26, 27 and 28th -out by the Peralta Trailhead? Contact Randy Wright in Mesa for details.

As I am planning on being there between my teaching chores I am looking forward to meeting you. If you are here and will not be at the gathering, I would still like to meet with you somewhere before you leave. See my profile to make contact or PM me.

I have information that will be very interesting to you as I too have used the web sites to answer more than a few clues that most have no idea of. Satellite imagery can be updated to be current and with great clarity and are available to anyone for a price. Did you volunteer to try to locate Steve? If you did, then you know what I am talking about. I found an oil slick on a lake in the search area and reported it but heard nothing more about it from the powers that are in charge. How’s that for clarity? The key to successfully finding anything using these photos is that you must use them FLAT, that is, without the 3d feature that looks so impressive to our limited minds but in reality distorts the images.

If you are in the right place at the right time, photographs show much more than the human eye can identify. I will show you the photos I took of the area a few months ago. Due to the existing light conditions at the time they are extremely revealing.

I sent these photos and ‘sterilized’ topo maps of the site to a childhood friend in Washington who I had just learned has ‘unusual’ powers to locate things since an electrical accident she suffered. She has been around the world on these quests and has been employed by large oil companies to do what she does. She marked the items I sent in the exact locations that I had determined to hold promise, and much more. She indicated that there is a lot more than I had even dreamed possible at the site, it extends several hundred yards from the ‘Portal’. Not unlike the drawings I was asked to make for a co-worker of a working location in Mexico. It was a vein over 900 feet long and three feet thick exiting the ground at 54 degrees sideways, like a volcanic dike. In other words the entire 900 foot length was being excavated to an unknown depth.

According to Helen Corbin’s 1990 book, “The Curse of the Dutchman’s Gold,” Jacob said he broke away all ‘traces’ on both sides of the streambed. I now believe that there is more ore under that entire outcropping. When viewed from high up, the ‘disguised’ outcropping still shows, so I took GPS coordinates at various points along the length of it.

The popular map said to be the map given to Erwin Ruth for the area is true and fairly accurate if you know how to read it. This is the same map in various versions shown in the 1977 paper back version of Mr. Gentry’s book “Killer Mountains” and the 1981 book “Superstition Mountain, a ride through time” by James Swanson and Tom Kollenborn of Apache Junction

One very important clue on the map was distorted, and not only by Richard A. Robinson in his book “Analysis of the Peralta Map” with the following quote:
“1.The term E. TO W. TO N TO S is written E. TO W. TO W. TO S.”

That clue was written exactly as it was meant to be. Again his/our limited minds are thinking inside the box. Once you see the area you will understand.

My ability to penetrate the hostile area on previous attempts from various starting points so far has failed to get me any closer than one mile but I will persist. I have learned that it cannot be done alone or in one day, at least by me. My final push to penetrate is to be prove with ‘on scene’ profile photos, not inaccurate depictions with currently available technology, that the map is just that, accurate. My last trip, two weeks ago, got me nothing but cuts and bruises and I ran out of time before I even got as far as my previous trips. So now I lay awake nights planning to make the next trip.

Sorry to have made this so long and I’ve probably said too much already.

-dustcap

 

[the blindbowman]

well stated , let me piont out the details of your 3D conflect . that is not true 3d , there is no true 3d topo as of yet ever done anywhere ,what this is is 2d elevated and streched over the mt range .it has no 3d reality to it at all other then the sales profeits ...lol

and you have miss under stood the E. TO W. TO N TO S the compass readings and so has your friend sorry but i will piont you in the right disrection ...

it goes back to the early days of navigation back then it was read (N, S ,E ,W ) in the a shape of a cross , modern navigation reads it (N,E,S,W) in a clockwise rotation,useing the starting piont in relatation to the 360 degree bearing circle...mostly because of modern flight ..

what dose this do if you under stand it . it takes miles off your path ... lol

i wish i could get to the gathering . most of my saveings are set aside for the expedition saddly ...

i would have very much like to walk the hole damn lot of them out to the new site and watch them all pass out from the shock lol ...i think the sting of the picks could be herd around the world if that happend lol ...

i would have even like to speak at the gathering but no one would stay to hear me ....lol

and yes i would very much like to meet everyone there ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,

The USGS sells raised relief maps, which while not truly 3-D are pretty nice and useful for planning/plotting out routes etc. I plan on buying several of these (with that first million $) to cover the Superstitions, Black Hills, Bighorns, Klondyke and several other areas, to decorate the library room. Here is a place that sells the raised relief USGS maps:
http://www.raisedrelief.com/usgsquads.htm

The map which covers the Superstitions is the Mesa quad (1:250,000 scale) and looks like this:

At $25.95 each (without frames) the cost of obtaining a lot of these would be prohibitive, but for a single area/region is reasonable enough.

Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

thanks Oro i had forgotten that term but that is what those maps are called raised relief .i was think rised contour ,as in contour lines ....they use them in deepth contour for soundings for sub and shellow waters .. but as anything else that was 28 years ago... where dose the time go ...