CBD Notice of Intent to Sue in Washington

[winners58]

Center for Biological Diversity and Cascadia Wildlands file Notice of Intent to Sue.

Center for Biological Diversity news release;
Lawsuit Launched to Protect Washington Rivers, Salmon From Destructive Suction Dredge Mining

Notice of Intent to Sue 1/10/17
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/...1-10_Suction_Dredge_ESA_CWA_Notice_Letter.pdf

 

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[Golden_Crab]

I dont understand why we can't nail these people in court for knowingly providing false information..

 

[Bejay]

It is and has been obvious after 1st commencing in Calif and then moving on to Oregon that the intent to stop placer mining activities is an ever expanding operation by such "environmental groups". Idaho. is also in the crosshairs. Much of this is all about politics and the ability of a political entity (State Gov and Legislative bodies) to battle on the side of one or the other. In Wash the attack, up till now, has warded off such anti measures. I would suggest that Evergreen College in Olympia may be a major venue for the anti groups! Rest assured this will end up in the courts if the Enviro groups have their way. Then it will all be based on who is successful in winning the court battles. When we observe such actions (Calif & Ore) we see that States abide by THEIR own interpretations of such issues. It will be interesting to see what court level this begins....as the Fed courts (In my observation) rely on States to first exhaust all remedies for resolve before the Fed courts take up the challenge. This is the never ending story....and we miners are constantly reminded of such things. There are some very good mining law expert groups who are getting involved and I would allow Clay Diggins to expand on this if he acquires some time to do so!

Bejay

 

[Golden_Crab]

Asked them to cite their sources of these "reports" I hope they did a fact check!

Example from their page "“Suction dredge mining pollutes our waterways with toxic mercury"

The supreme would 100% disagree and already have. Excerpt from AMRA website:

"The 2015 Idaho suction dredge season began as another year with AMRA standing up to the EPA and their illegal schemes to ban suction dredging, but it soon became a fight with the USFS and yet another attempt by a government agency to ban suction dredging on the South Fork of the Clearwater in Idaho. Last year, AMRA went to Idaho and dredged for two weeks on their claim on the SF Clearwater in opposition to the EPA illegally demanding an NPDES Permit (pollution discharge permit) or face a $37,500 per day fine. We were threatened with jail, fines of over a half a million dollars and typical government intimidation to stop something the EPA had no right to require. We responded with the law, the Supreme Court cases which show they do not have the authority to require this and we did not back down. We have not heard from the EPA since last year.
The simple truth about suction dredging is there is no requirement to obtain a “pollutant discharge permit” as suction dredges do not pollute. In fact, they clean the waterways of 98% of the mercury and nearly 100% of the lead and other heavy trash in the rivers. They create fish habitat by loosening the gravels fish love to live in, create deeper pools where small fish can hide and live in cooler waters more conducive to growth. Study after study has been completed, mostly with tax payer funds and have conclusively proven suction dredging is not deleterious to fish and fish habitat. But, as we all know, political ideology seems to trump common sense and factual science when dealing with those who oppose suction dredging and small miners in general. Albert Einstein coined the phrase “doing something over and over again expecting a different result is the definition of insanity”. It is insanity to keep spending millions of tax payer dollars on studies which all show the same results expecting it to change to their ideology.
Suction dredging results in what is called “incidental fallback” and was a part of two Supreme Court cases, Tulloch and Tulloch II. This definition is best analogized by Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader-Ginsberg and her “soup pot theory” which came from the South Florida Water Management District v Miccosukee Tribe of Indians, later cited in the Los Angeles County Flood Control District v Natural Resources Defense Council. Justice Ginsberg stated if you dip a ladle into a pot of soup, lift it up and pour it right back in, do you pollute? The answer is no, and this is why they ruled 9-0 in this case. Suction dredges do not pollute period, they move gravels, after cleaning them, to a new location about 20 feet way."

Like... what hope do they think they have in court? Someone is getting paid off if you defy the supreme courts rulings.

 

[winners58]

Its been going on for a while now, they have insiders in the state and federal agency's
they sue then settle and impose restrictions on a third party(us) its collusion plain and simple.

what is sue & settle;
https://www.uschamber.com/sites/default/files/documents/files/SUEANDSETTLEREPORT-Final.pdf

 

[Golden_Crab]

Its been going on for a while now, they have insiders in the state and agency's
they sue then settle and impose restrictions on a third party(us) its collusion plain and simple.

So how do you prove the collusion? There has to be a $$$ trail.

Perhaps we should stop trying fight the organization but the individuals behind the mask?

"I. FACTUAL BACKGROUND
Suction dredge mining is pervasive throughout Washington State, particularly in critical
habitat for listed species. Watersheds such as the Methow, Nooksack, Wenatchee, Yakima,
Lewis, Okanogan, and Similkameenare of particular interest to the mining community and, as a
consequence, these watersheds evidence significant impacts from suction dredge mining.
Because suction dredge miners can rely on the general Gold and Fish Pamphlet, a pamphlet
permit that does not require reporting,5
4 Id. § 1538(a)(1).
WDFW is not able to track the total number or
whereabouts of most mining activity. However, miners also seek individual HPA permits to
mine outside the suction dredge work windows of the Gold and Fish Pamphlet which indicates
the number of small scale miners concentrated in these critical watersheds is enormous.
Currently, numerous individual HPA permits have been issued in total. If all suction dredge
mining could be accounted for, the total number of miners would likely be an order of magnitude
greater because the total number of miners without individual HPAs operating in conformance,
or in contravention of, with the Gold and Fish Pamphlet is unknown. "

Such definitive and specific... speculation.


Wow half of their submitted lawsuit is worded very loosely with a great deal of subjective terminology, none of their sources cite recent reports or the credibility of such "science" within dated cherry picked reports. If this is accepted and settled under "emergency conditions" with all this flatout disproven (with legal precedence in a few instances) information it either speaks to the incompetence of the department or to collusion as those without ulterior motives would have surely refuted such wild baseless claims. Just like they dont have to prove any of their facts, we dont have to prove they are evil scum sucking *******s... we just have to paint that picture! Perception is reality.

 

[Bejay]

Asked them to cite their sources of these "reports" I hope they did a fact check!

Example from their page "“Suction dredge mining pollutes our waterways with toxic mercury"

The supreme would 100% disagree and already have. Excerpt from AMRA website:

"The 2015 Idaho suction dredge season began as another year with AMRA standing up to the EPA and their illegal schemes to ban suction dredging, but it soon became a fight with the USFS and yet another attempt by a government agency to ban suction dredging on the South Fork of the Clearwater in Idaho. Last year, AMRA went to Idaho and dredged for two weeks on their claim on the SF Clearwater in opposition to the EPA illegally demanding an NPDES Permit (pollution discharge permit) or face a $37,500 per day fine. We were threatened with jail, fines of over a half a million dollars and typical government intimidation to stop something the EPA had no right to require. We responded with the law, the Supreme Court cases which show they do not have the authority to require this and we did not back down. We have not heard from the EPA since last year.
The simple truth about suction dredging is there is no requirement to obtain a “pollutant discharge permit” as suction dredges do not pollute. In fact, they clean the waterways of 98% of the mercury and nearly 100% of the lead and other heavy trash in the rivers. They create fish habitat by loosening the gravels fish love to live in, create deeper pools where small fish can hide and live in cooler waters more conducive to growth. Study after study has been completed, mostly with tax payer funds and have conclusively proven suction dredging is not deleterious to fish and fish habitat. But, as we all know, political ideology seems to trump common sense and factual science when dealing with those who oppose suction dredging and small miners in general. Albert Einstein coined the phrase “doing something over and over again expecting a different result is the definition of insanity”. It is insanity to keep spending millions of tax payer dollars on studies which all show the same results expecting it to change to their ideology.
Suction dredging results in what is called “incidental fallback” and was a part of two Supreme Court cases, Tulloch and Tulloch II. This definition is best analogized by Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader-Ginsberg and her “soup pot theory” which came from the South Florida Water Management District v Miccosukee Tribe of Indians, later cited in the Los Angeles County Flood Control District v Natural Resources Defense Council. Justice Ginsberg stated if you dip a ladle into a pot of soup, lift it up and pour it right back in, do you pollute? The answer is no, and this is why they ruled 9-0 in this case. Suction dredges do not pollute period, they move gravels, after cleaning them, to a new location about 20 feet way."

Like... what hope do they think they have in court? Someone is getting paid off if you defy the supreme courts rulings.

The response per your post, was and is, exactly the correct response to the NEPA intrusion for permit. Many States coerce with the EPA to contrive THEIR own "permit process". One must recognize that States and Feds are two separate entities. Best example is the marijuana issue. A States contempt for Federal Law is nothing new. Many cases can be cited. Many times when the "populous" of a state is adversely affect by "State Legislation"; the populous can raise such an uproar that states are given the "cease and desist" by the Fed for their "unlawful legislation". As we have most often seen, the enviro groups are targeting small user groups, (a small portion of the States' populous), and using political influence to achieve their goals. One would think that LAW is LAW....but that is obviously not a truism.....as seen with the Supreme Court inner conflicting interpretations. So basically one is left to challenge a State long before it can reach a higher Federal Court level. In the case involving miners we see that when and if the case reaches a higher court the brief to the court convoluted with language that deters its success.....(as my own personal observation). There may be hope once we see a new admin and new Secretary of Interior and Secretary of Agriculture....(political appointments). There are many in the mining community who would like to see quick remedies/resolve of these anti measures but I am personally not holding my breath. As I discussed today with someone very knowledgeable of these mining issues: "it is what it is". One can only work to hopefully see a positive change; and each miner must do what they can to arrest the actions by these enviro groups. It is not an easy task and one that confronts us daily! I would love to see the the Feds step in to help the miner and challenge states on such anti mining actions.....preemption can go a long ways. The GRANT can go a long way as well. But I believe the challenge/action would best be served if the Feds were to step up to the plate and help the miner. The BLM & USFS are Federal agencies managing the public lands.......... and Federal Laws are to be upheld. Many such Acts (laws) must be applied correctly. Applicable CFR's must be applied correctly by such agencies. And one can not forget the issue of Public Domain. But states interfere......and that is a FACT. I believe what you will see in any lawsuit that is presented are the words "May harm" or "potential risk of harming"...these I term "PROJECTED FEARS"..... subject to political convenience. "Golly gee"....I think I have been stating this for over 10 years now....and we see the constant progression of battles....State by State!

Bejay

 

[Golden_Crab]

 

[kcm]

So why does it happen in the first place? Follow the money. Why does it continue to happen? Follow the money.

Back in the early days of this nation, mining was bringing in a tremendous amount of revenue for the government. Some of the wealthiest men in America then were into mining, and they were adding to the financial status of a growing nation. Now, mining is all but lost as much more money is made in other sectors of industry, and there are very few wealthy Americans due to mining. So, if you are the government and you are money-driven (but not in a business-like way), who would you buddy up to - miners? Or to the people who have so much money that they can keep you a happy fatcat if you do what you can to suppress mining?

 

[Golden_Crab]

The key to winning against these idiots is fight fire with fire... talk to folks that care about how tax $$$ gets spent, which is all of us whether we have anything to do with gold panning or not. Make it a point to explain the economic impact of systematically removing recreating groups from our public lands, talk about how the hunters / fishermen will be next, then the hikers / campers, then the forest personnel themselves will see cuts because they just dont need the staff since the forests are empty. Talk about how this will destroy local rural communities which only hurts the tax deficit more and forces those now unemployed people onto state & federal assistance. People displaced from their long standing historic communities in this manner are now going to have to move into the cities and fight YOU for jobs since their way of life was taken unwillingly from them. Do you see the snowball effect? Make others see it too and these people will find themselves in an uphill battle real quick. Get celebrities involved, its a winning strategy when it comes to getting the word out quick.

Obviously our legislative system is just useless, so time for a new approach eh?

 

[kcm]

The key to winning against these idiots is fight fire with fire... talk to folks that care about how tax $$$ gets spent, which is all of us whether we have anything to do with gold panning or not. Make it a point to explain the economic impact of systematically removing recreating groups from our public lands, talk about how the hunters / fishermen will be next, then the hikers / campers, then the forest personnel themselves will see cuts because they just dont need the staff since the forests are empty. Talk about how this will destroy local rural communities which only hurts the tax deficit more and forces those now unemployed people onto state & federal assistance. People displaced from their long standing historic communities in this manner are now going to have to move into the cities and fight YOU for jobs since their way of life was taken unwillingly from them. Do you see the snowball effect? Make others see it too and these people will find themselves in an uphill battle real quick. Get celebrities involved, its a winning strategy when it comes to getting the word out quick.

Obviously our legislative system is just useless, so time for a new approach eh?

...What part of the country do YOU live in?!?!? Last I knew, most people couldn't care less about where their tax dollars went - other than to complain about having to pay them in the first place. I remember (and DON'T judge me for this!) watching Glenn Beck on FOX several years ago, I think when Obummer got re-elected - in that era. Anyway, they showed numerous people on the street that couldn't answer some of the most simple questions about our country, the election process, the government, voting, etc. And oftentimes, the people in these interviews were current college students who were studying the subject, or they had a degree in such-and-such and would then make the comment that they "should" have known that.

I know I don't know that much about those things; not as much as I would like. Why? Because I'm too busy trying to keep my head above water in the game of life. And it's also easier to find people to "say" they care about this or that, but it's a lot more difficult to find someone willing to get off their sofas and DO SOMETHING!! ...I better stop here before Treasure Hunter deletes my thread.

 

[russau]

Its been going on for a while now, they have insiders in the state and federal agency's
they sue then settle and impose restrictions on a third party(us) its collusion plain and simple.

what is sue & settle;
https://www.uschamber.com/sites/default/files/documents/files/SUEANDSETTLEREPORT-Final.pdf

Winners58 I can see where the CBD gets "their money"!! Just sue the EPA over some issue that the EPA wants to control anyway and they will give them whatever they want! Its kinda like myself asking myself to give myself a hefty pay raise ! Whoda thunk I would do that!!! I wish Trump would do away with this sue & settle way of staling Americas rights / money!!

 

[Golden_Crab]

So is there anyway to legally make these peoples lives hell? You know where to find them, it's a lot harder to lie to an angry mob on camera than it is through email and websites.

 

[Goldfleks]

I like how they talk about the high concentration of suction dredgers as part of the issue. Ironically if people could drege in cali and oregon more of the miners would be spread out.