Chinese "copy" coins in PCGS slabs

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

I know of a website that sells Chinese copy coins, most without markings of copy. I was poking around there because I had heard that they are faking PCGS slabs with coins.

There were 8 PCGS slabs, 4 of them 1893-S. I checked the verification numbers on the coins against the PCGS website. The numbers on the fake holders match to the PCGS website. This is scary. they had XF AU and MS coins, without spending the $98 for the 90% silver "copy" coin you cannot tell if the coin grades to the grade on the slab or the PCGS website.
I had told my local dealer that they had the fake slabs but wasn't sure if the numbers matched, unfortunately they do.

This is very scary! You cannot trust the slab just by checking the numbers.

 

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[smokeythecat]

Not good.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Not good.

SCARY AS HELL. It scared the heck out of me!

 

[jerseyben]

I know of a website that sells Chinese copy coins, most without markings of copy. I was poking around there because I had heard that they are faking PCGS slabs with coins.

There were 8 PCGS slabs, 4 of them 1893-S. I checked the verification numbers on the coins against the PCGS website. The numbers on the fake holders match to the PCGS website. This is scary. they had XF AU and MS coins, without spending the $98 for the 90% silver "copy" coin you cannot tell if the coin grades to the grade on the slab or the PCGS website.
I had told my local dealer that they had the fake slabs but wasn't sure if the numbers matched, unfortunately they do.

This is very scary! You cannot trust the slab just by checking the numbers.

Im not trying to take away from the point you are trying to make...

But... You have essentially just made some baseless accusations with no proof.

Do you have specific details to provide? Otherwise, this is just a random story. How do you know the coins are fake?

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Here is my proof. or it is one hell of a buy! They are selling a 90% silver coin 1893-s in XF that catalogs for $11,500 dollars for $153.00 Again if they are not fake it is the buy of a lifetime, even if PCGS over graded them it is well worth it. My gut feeling though is that they are fake. If I had $153 I would buy one to see what it really is.

I have bought a couple coins from Aliexpress to see what they are really like and they are scary real, my dealer had to closely examine an XF/AU 1839 Seated that even rang like silver when dropped and looked right. Under magnification it took a moment to decide was it real. He even said it was scary. The come unmarked with the word copy, I took an electro pen to mine to write copy on it.

The half dollars and uncertified silver dollars are $1.40 including shipping and $22 in 90% silver, expensive for the junk Franklin I bought but the $1.40 ones would fool most people. I got them with the thought to scroll saw them into jewlery but am now worried if they contain lead. Ordering a lead test kit to check them. They would be good to practice on, at $1.40 each, before cutting a real coin.

the PCGS number checks out. If it is legit I want to jump all over it.






https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1893-s-US-Morgan-90-Pure-Silver-One-Dollar-In-Grade-Case-XF-45/32813732461.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.8.7cbb5498h3Cp6&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_2_10065_10344_10130_10068_10324_10547_10342_10325_10546_10343_10340_10548_10341_10545_10084_10083_10618_10615_10307_10313_10059_10534_100031_10103_441_10624_442_10623_10622_10621_10620_10142,searchweb201603_28,ppcSwitch_4&algo_expid=c3162e7f-5f20-4a95-bc19-dc8b7188dbce-1&algo_pvid=c3162e7f-5f20-4a95-bc19-dc8b7188dbce&priceBeautifyAB=3

 

[jerseyben]

Here is my proof. or it is one hell of a buy! They are selling a 90% silver coin 1893-s in XF that catalogs for $11,500 dollars for $153.00 Again if they are not fake it is the buy of a lifetime, even if PCGS over graded them it is well worth it. My gut feeling though is that they are fake. If I had $153 I would buy one to see what it really is.

I have bought a couple coins from Aliexpress to see what they are really like and they are scary real, my dealer had to closely examine an XF/AU 1839 Seated that even rang like silver when dropped and looked right. Under magnification it took a moment to decide was it real. He even said it was scary. The come unmarked with the word copy, I took an electro pen to mine to write copy on it.

The half dollars and uncertified silver dollars are $1.40 including shipping and $22 in 90% silver, expensive for the junk Franklin I bought but the $1.40 ones would fool most people. I got them with the thought to scroll saw them into jewlery but am now worried if they contain lead. Ordering a lead test kit to check them. They would be good to practice on, at $1.40 each, before cutting a real coin.

the PCGS number checks out. If it is legit I want to jump all over it.





https://www.aliexpress.com/item/189...5f20-4a95-bc19-dc8b7188dbce&priceBeautifyAB=3

Fair enough. Thank you for providing additional details.

 

[smokeythecat]

Yes, I agree with the OP. Like mom said, if it's too good to be true, it's not true.

 

[wagbert]

An excellent post Ben. It is important to bring information like this to the casual coin buyer. I would hope seasoned collectors would be able to tell if a valuable coin was genuine or not. Collectors sometimes get in a hurry though and make mistakes.
Among other things, I also have insomnia, so I spend quite a bit of time surfing the web and usually end up on youtube. If you type in "How to spot fake PCGS slabs" on the select a topic bar, you will see a number of videos addressing this problem. In fact, the first video listed discusses a fake 1893-S Morgan Dollar in a fake PCGS holder ! The video is a couple of years old, and there are several more good videos about fake coins and fake slabs. The slabs sometimes make identification more difficult to the naked eye, so it is important to use some sort of magnification with good bright lighting when viewing expensive items. It is a shame, and as others have mentioned, dangerous because establishing the genuineness of the slabbed coin is one of the factors we count on with third party grading. Thanks for the post, and Good Luck everyone !

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

I don't know if I am a seasoned collector, I have been collecting for about 30 years but often depended on my local coin shop making sure the coins are legit, over the last 5 to 10 years I have really tried to learn all I could. just before that I bought what I think is a fake from my local shop, it was a case of the old auction card it was on was one where I used to buy "Worth Coin" in Boston and I focused on that not the Trade Dollar (to the eye it looked ok) now I look at it and it looks wrong so when I sent in a 1967 Kennedy on a 90% planchet (I hope) so I could be sure about the Trade Dollar, it makes me really pay attention.

One of the scary things, among many, is that the weights are often right on for the coins, many are light but many are fine as far as weight. I just got a silver plated California commem and a 1878 seated half in XF from China to see what the silver one looked like, it is a MS62+ but without the mint frost, looks like a legit coin that was dipped lightly size and weight are on the money and the 1878 to the naked eye looks good. You really have to put them under a loop and look closely at them. This is what is really scary, when I showed my dealer even he had to look at some of them with a loop!
I have ordered a 90% coin silver coin from China again as an education tool to see if those are easy or hard to tell. You can get any silver coin in coin silver but they cost around $22-$32 depending on coin. Even the circulated Franklins are faked, for $1.40 you could fill a can with 3/4 legit and 1/4 fakes when dumping junk silver and it could easily slip by a dealer. When you cannot tell visually and they sound good and are the right size how many dealers loop each piece of junk silver?

Just so you know I have a copy stamp and when I get these coins I stamp them all prominently "COPY" so that they won't be confused. I am half tempted to see if they will go through a coin counter or get rejected as they are not magnetic and have the right size and weight. If I do decide to try one I will stamp it not just once but all over COPY so no on could confuse it, or talk with a bank manager about trying a test, although like TD bank that could cause them to pull the coin counters so I think it is better to let sleeping dogs lie or do it surreptitiously

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

I may be a nut but I really want to see if you can tell a 90% Franklin copy from a 90% real one, so for $20 I ordered a 1956 90% coin silver Franklin in XF. Then I can compare it to a real one and after melt it down or mark 90% (I always mark them COPY)

You can buy an entire set of Mercuries including the 1916D for $96 you can get Morgans or Walkers full sets, this is bad.

I just dropped 2 of my genuine Franklins on glass and my metal desk and compared the ring to the silver plate and the non-plate counterfeits and they sound exactly the same! a real silver ring to them, so you cannot tell by sound, size, or weight, you have to tell by looking at a loop.

Why did I start this investigation? First for education I wanted to see how good (or bad) they were and second I want to scrollsaw coins for jewelery but hate to practice on real silver coins so figured these would be easier to cut (softer) and I wouldn't be ruining a real coin but worry if there is lead in them (ordered a test kit) also they make some with a mix of tungsten.

I will keep people updated. I am showing them to my dealers so they get educated and know what to look for.

 

[3cylbill]

my dealer has a lazer scope to check for authenticty including slabbed coins , the chinese just want to destroy coin collecting for Americans . they are producing fakes of MOST American coins......

 

[jerseyben]

my dealer has a lazer scope to check for authenticty including slabbed coins , the chinese just want to destroy coin collecting for Americans . they are producing fakes of MOST American coins......

Absurd. They are simply interested in making a profit. Albeit, in an unethical manner. Don't take it personally.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Absurd. They are simply interested in making a profit. Albeit, in an unethical manner. Don't take it personally.

You nailed it, it is all about making money! If they destroy coin collecting it destroys their industry. It is like drug dealers, they are not trying to kill people or destroy the country they are mainly interesting in making money, if someone sees a need or desire they will try to make money filling it.

I will create a thread posting pictures of various coins for peoples information, of course some will be like a 1895 or 1893-s copy and then a normal Morgan as I don't have any really big money coins.

 

[cudamark]

Unfortunately, by purchasing those fakes, you encourage them to make more.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Yes, but without being able to check them out it opens us to being fooled by them. However since they have been doing this for years and are still making knock-off Rolex watches etc. I don't think my couple of purchases is going to keep them in business. There was someone on the Coin Hunters facebook page who bought some fakes from someone here, not sure if it was a dealer but he got stung. Something caused him to ask the group if we thought his 3 1883's were real. But I would rather know rather than just have someone say look out for fakes, but what do they look like, people say you can tell by looking at them but that is getting harder and harder as they are no longer cast but die struck with dies that look just like the mint's.

It is a catch 22.