✅ SOLVED Chinese tool or decorative piece?

[strick]

Found this in an old Chinese gold mining camp. Help identifying it would be greatly appreciated.



strick

 

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[CTwoods]

It's a ramrod guide from a Belgian made double barrel shotgun and likely dates to the 1840's. look at the pic I posted, and the link. The rust only shows that the screw or tack was still in it when it went in the ground. The rest of the gun could be nearby, but the rust spot alone is no guarantee.

Promise me you won't get mad? LOL... It is not from that gun, by any stretch. Zoom the Belgian pic, and not only the shape is more elaborate, look at the intense, well detailed engraving on it. It appears to have crosshatch or herringbone pattern inset into the main engraving. Something expected on a later, fancy, gents/hunting gun.


My point about engraving and the outline of the side spikes is, that the style of those must be considered, as well as the basic shapes involved, to get a date era or quality of the object

edit: on the rust stain residue. I hope you can see what I mean on the underside remains; Looking at the outside where the screwhead would be, there is a smaller round spot like you would expect from a head. You can even guess the size of the head. IMO

However the hidden side residue spread way out, like it was still against the wood.

 

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[strick]

Thanks Fellas! You guys are great. I would probably never been able to figure it out! If I find any more gun parts I'll post them on this thread. I have been finding lots of round balls at this area.

thanks again...

strick

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Promise me you won't get mad? LOL... It is not from that gun, by any stretch. Zoom the Belgian pic, and not only the shape is more elaborate, look at the intense, well detailed engraving on it. It appears to have crosshatch or herringbone pattern inset into the main engraving. Something expected on a later, fancy, gents/hunting gun.


My point about engraving and the outline of the side spikes is, that the style of those must be considered, as well as the basic shapes involved, to get a date era or quality of the object

edit: on the rust stain residue. I hope you can see what I mean on the underside remains; Looking at the outside where the screwhead would be, there is a smaller round spot like you would expect from a head. You can even guess the size of the head. IMO

However the hidden side residue spread way out, like it was still against the wood.

I'm not mad I was just in a bit of a hurry last night and that came out a bit shorter than I had intended..... The pic and link I posted is just for reference, to show the basic shape of the piece and how it fit to the stock. Not to say that it was the exact same gun. Just like today, there was wide range in price on these guns, and they went from plain to really fancy. Differences in engraving can be chalked up to different levels of pretty furniture on the various guns. They were hand finished, so really no two are going to be exactly alike.

These Belgian guns fall into a category that a lot of collectors call "Hardware Store Guns" They are pretty interesting guns to read up on. They ranged in price from a few dollars for a plain single barrel up to $20.00 or more, which was quite a bit of money in those days, especially considering that you could get a new fangled revolver for around $10.00.

Here's a few more pics.... The ad is for later cartridge guns, but it's a typical hardware store gun ad and shows the price ranges you would expect back then. The second one shows another hardware store gun with the same type guide, and the third one I found shows that the guides could be lost from the gun due to cracks in the fore arm.... This one seems to have taken a bit of the wood with it when it fell off.





EDIT : I should add, one reason I'm sure it's going to be from a mid 1800's percussion gun is where it was found, being a Chinese mining camp in California tells me it's not going to be too much older than the gold rush era. Also while there certainly are older double barrel flint lock guns, they were very expensive, and not the kind of thing you'd expect to find in a camp, and really by the time California was seeing mining camps they would have been considered obsolete and it's really unlikely that anyone would be carrying one around.

 

[CTwoods]

. Differences in engraving can be chalked up to different levels of pretty furniture on the various guns. They were hand finished, so really no two are going to be exactly alike.






EDIT : I should add, one reason I'm sure it's going to be from a mid 1800's percussion gun is where it was found, being a Chinese mining camp in California tells me it's not going to be too much older than the gold rush era. Also while there certainly are older double barrel flint lock guns, they were very expensive, and not the kind of thing you'd expect to find in a camp, and really by the time California was seeing mining camps they would have been considered obsolete and it's really unlikely that anyone would be carrying one around.

I agree there would be a difference in different price levels.

But I disagree on basing an age of an artifact, on the site location alone. I have an example on a cellar site in my town. It has been hunted for decades, as it is on public land and very obvious. :

I hunted there many times when I only had an hour as it is close by. I could never find any written history of the site. I never found anything that I could date below the later 1800s IMO, but finally found a broken Tombac button which most websites claim is around 1780 for this type. But it was the ONLY thing in the 1700s. Then a month ago I found a "keyhole" plate for some furniture piece, and researched the hand stamped design tooling to the 1690-1720 period. That is so much older than the button, but the furniture could have been an old piece that was inherited and brought to a newer home. The furniture could have been 100-150 years old when brought to this home, or maybe not...I will not know without town records on when it was occupied.

We apparently do not have an Antique Firearm Specialist viewing our comments. That person should know when that distinct "forked L-shape" type of "ramrod entry" was first used, or at least, when it was "typical". At this point, we have no proof that it is from a long gun, or a pistol, or if a double. All we really know is that it was a muzzle loader firearm. I do see where you are thinking it was from a double..but..

at any rate, all of this research and comparing thoughts, adds quite a bit of interest to a long lost artifact. Sure beats trying to figure out what a rotted coin once was

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Ok, well... I can qualify it a bit more.... I build and shoot muzzle loading guns, I have been around and owned antique guns for most of my life. I've seen, handled and fired hundreds of old guns dating from as far back as the early 1700's. I'm fairly knowledgeable on the subject, but I'll stop short of saying I'm an expert. I do know that based on a lot of guns I've seen, this guide is typical of the type for that time frame. I've owned a couple like it over the years which is why I knew what it was as soon as I saw it. The one Ironman posted is an earlier style, you can see the broken stud on it, which it where it would have been pinned to the stock rather than held in with a screw or tack. His I would think could be old enough to have come from a flint lock gun.

 

[marion moore]

is that a rivet in the middle going thru a hole?

marion

 

[NOLA_Ken]

is that a rivet in the middle going thru a hole?

marion

It would have been a screw or an iron tack, short enough that it didn't go through to the channel for the rod.

 

[Ironman!]

NOLA_KEN - I am definitely not a firearms person at all, I just dig the heck out of them. My question to you is why is the screw on the first ram rod guide I showed on the under side where the stock would be? The hole does not go all the way through. Shouldn't it come from the other side? I did find another one where the screw has been pulled back and would go through and into the stock.

Also, I would like to point out that I have hunted numerous GR camps in Northern California and most were worked before the Chinese worked them. Myself and my circle of friends have found numerous relics and coins that pre-date the GR era. Who knows what was brought in from the East coast or from around the World! We know there were many many immigrants from all nationalities coming to California then. I have even found a Great Coat button in one of those camps. That button and the bust coins we find attest to what guys held onto for a long time as well as their firearms that were passed down from generation to generation.

IM

 

[CTwoods]

Nice finds.... that Ca. detecting sounds pretty awesome. I'd bet some nice scenery and vistas as well.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

NOLA_KEN - I am definitely not a firearms person at all, I just dig the heck out of them. My question to you is why is the screw on the first ram rod guide I showed on the under side where the stock would be? The hole does not go all the way through. Shouldn't it come from the other side? I did find another one where the screw has been pulled back and would go through and into the stock.

Also, I would like to point out that I have hunted numerous GR camps in Northern California and most were worked before the Chinese worked them. Myself and my circle of friends have found numerous relics and coins that pre-date the GR era. Who knows what was brought in from the East coast or from around the World! We know there were many many immigrants from all nationalities coming to California then. I have even found a Great Coat button in one of those camps. That button and the bust coins we find attest to what guys held onto for a long time as well as their firearms that were passed down from generation to generation.

IM

When I first looked at your pic I was mistaken and thought I was looking at a pin on type of guide, for some reason my mind did not say "screw" when I saw it... I guess I should have clicked on it so I could have seen it enlarged..... The lower on in the pic is a typical mounting method where the top of the screw would have been flush or slightly countersunk in the rod channel through the grip... When I blew it up I thought I could just make out a little circle where the screw is on the bottom of it.... The other one.... I don't know what's going on there.... it looks like someone took it off the gun and just stuck the screw back in it that way, maybe just to keep them together.... maybe they broke their stock and kept the guide to put on a replacement?


Here's a pic from the one I linked to, if you look at the screw you can see it was mounted from the inside just like yours, and they even ran the engraving over the end of it which I think is a nice touch.....