City Park with a very old unmarked cemetary. What would you do?

[chewi4u]

I recently went to the local Parks and Recreation office of a city that I live close to to inquire about permission to MD in the citys parks. It's a good thing I asked because come to find out a permit is required. So I filled out the paperwork and got my free Metal Detecting permit card and sticker for the detector. Permit states: "Permit Holder has permission to hunt metal in any blah blah city park with the exception of blah blah Golf Course and any park where it interferes with the public or other permitted activities. This permitis revocable by the blah blah Parks & Recreation Department if bearer violates any of the rules of restrictions concerning this permit. Card must be on your person when hunting metal and is non-transferable." So after reading this I start to decide which park I will try my luck at first. So I pick the park with the most interesting background. The park I chose contained an old cemetary that no one seems to know exactly where it is but have a good idea based on a raised hill. The park is only 2.5 acres and has a small playground and grassy area. So I choose to stay by the playground. About an hour after I started hunting only finding clad by the way a Parks officer shows up and starts questioning me about what I was doing and what I had found. I told him that I wasn't having very much luck. He says "You know this park has a cemetary right?" I said I did and that I had no intensions of searching in that area of the park. I also told him that my permit mensions no restrictions on this park for MDing. I handed him the permit and he had the look like he had never seen one before. He also asked to see my ID. I didn't have a problem with that so I did. He returned from his truck and told me he didn't really know the exact location of the old cemetary since no one has any record of headstone locations. The last recorded mentioning of anyone seeing headstones was in 1918. He said "I'm going to have to look into this further because it's a crime to dig in a cemetary and may be not allowed in the park holding the cemetary either." I informed him that the park has been searched many times over through the years by many different people and there has never been an issue. If the parks department doesn't have an issue with it why is this park cop giving us problems. I think he just wanted something to do on a boring day. He took my number down and told me he would find out if it was ok to return to the park to hunt later. That was a week ago never heard a word. What do you all think? I think I had a better idea of the location of the graves better then the officer. Oh and the city website only in passing mentions that an old grave site exists at the park. If there was a grave site in the location I was searching I doubt they would erect swings, slides, bbq grills, and picnic table there.

 

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[Terry Soloman]

I think I would go back to the Parks Department and get clarification. Don't make an enemy if you don't have to. You have a permit and the park is not on the do not detect list, so get clarification. Let's face it, many times the power of a badge just makes an idiot a bigger idiot, Tread with care.

 

[cudamark]

First, I would NEVER have asked a park and rec employee to give me permission to detect. You can look that up for yourself without causing any questions about your activity. Once you found that a permit was required, read the rules and requirements it demands. If nothing is mentioned about restrictions in the cemetery park, I'd hunt it. If the ranger asked for the permit, sure, show it to him. If he asks you if you know there is a cemetery somewhere inside, play dumb. I wouldn't have given him my number unless it's already on file as part of the permit process. Unlike Terry, I would not try to get clarification. If it's not forbidden in the permit, I don't want some bureaucrat deciding on their whim that it is. Keep hunting responsibly until it's no longer allowed officially....in writing.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

sounds to me like your "permit" (that the city offered such a thing), and your having gone in for "permission" didn't give you a free-for-all to just run nilly willy around detecting. I mean, sure, that busy-body "had his reasons" for questioning you. Sure. But so too can (and does) similar situations play out when an irate gardeners thinks that this particular (you) md'r will "leave holes" or "might puncture the sprinkler lines", etc.... The md'r proudly whips out his permission or permit, ONLY to have what happened to you, occur. And the md'r is left scratching his head thinking "gee, I had permission" or "gee, I had a permit". Then the next thing that happens is this "new and pressing question" (about unknown un-marked cemetaries, or earthworms, or sprinklers, or whatever) comes before the powers-that-be. Because now you've gone seeking clarification (as someone like Terry suggests to do). Or that the griper takes the issue to his superior. Or whatever.

Now ..... honestly .... put yourself in THEIR position with this new and pressing issue before them. What would YOU do? Try to figure out where graves were 100 yrs. ago? Add yet another park (like the golf course) that is "off-limits"? Or would you just make it plain and simple and stop this whole md'ing permit nonsense to begin with? OF COURSE cities would tend to make it simple. Can you blame them? Why should they spend time splitting hairs, worrying about the yahoo who might not abide, etc... (I mean, do you really think the permits generate enough $$ to the city coffers to be worth the paper they're printed on??).

So all the people who think permits are a "grand" idea, or that "permission" solves all problems and deflects busy-bodies, see from this (and this is not an isolated incident by the way), that rarely do these things work out in the md'rs favor.

As you yourself say and know chew-i4u, the park has and is probably regularly detected. So what's happened here, is that you've run into someone having a bad day, or a singular park employee who has some "mental connotation" in his mind (even though the REASONABLE person knows you'll never disturb a grave, if you've only found clad, and can't exceed 9" if your life depended on it, even IF you could start getting oldies, so how-the-heck does THAT bother any graves?).

We have a park in San Francisco, CA that had ...... prior to the 1910s, been a graveyard. But at a certain point in the city's history (late teens I think), the city moved all the graveyards out of the city to Coloma, since real estate was at a premium. *Supposedly* all the graves from prior to that, were dug up and moved to the new locations. HOWEVER, during a park renovation project (tractors scraping the sod back and forth, so we were there harvesting the silver), we did indeed find hinges, clasps, etc... of coffins. We did indeed see bones, etc...

Now I suppose if we'd "made a big stink" and gone and asked clarification, etc... guess what would have happened? And I'm sure someone, if we'd gone parading in front of enough busy-bodies, might have "raised the question", and so forth. But as it was, we didn't wear big red-X's on our backs, and avoided busy-bodies.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: perhaps you can avoid *just this one busy-body* in the future. I mean, afterall, those others who you say have been detecting there, have obviously not had a problem with him (didn't happen to run into him when he was on-the-rag?) Because the alternative of thinking you can go "fight this" and "get it clarified", may bring about the exact opposite of what you hope to achieve.

 

[chewi4u]

Thanks for the comments everyone this is why I love forums. Yeah this was a rookie park ranger cop for sure I'm in my thirties and he was definitely younger then I am. And judging by the fact that the city has apperantly been issuing these permits since the 90's. Leads me to believe that this guy was talking out his rear. The fact that he never got back with me when he said he would also leads me to believe that when he talked with the parks department they probably told him that there was no problem with mding there. I asked him if I was going to have any other problems at any of the other 25 parks that the permit gives me permission to hunt. He said "Nope the only reason I stopped was because this park has an old cemetary." There is another treasure net member that wrote a nice little article about this park with pictures and some of his finds. It's by ivy_walls and the title of the thread is "Cemetary Doesn't Give Up Too Many Ghosts." Check it out and let me know what you think. I will eventually go back. I found to many old beaver tails and old clad for the short time I was there to think that it is hunted out.

Thanks
Chewi4u (Adam)

 

[Tom_in_CA]

..... There is another treasure net member that wrote a nice little article about this park with pictures and some of his finds. It's by ivy_walls and the title of the thread is "Cemetary Doesn't Give Up Too Many Ghosts." Check it out and let me know what you think....

Adam, regarding the above quote by you. Do you know what the difference is between that hunter (who hunted the place without being told scram), and yourself? He happened to run into that barney-fife, and you didn't. Moral of the story? AVOID THAT BARNEY FIFE.

I know some people would view such advice as "sneaking around". They will insist that such an encounter means: "go to city hall and seek clarification". But ......... FINE THEN, we'll call it "sneaking around" it you want. Fine. Just like picking your nose .... we all sorta "use a little discretion" in our timing when we do that, right?

For example, in the previous example I gave of a certain SF park that was being renovated, we were going in each night after 5pm, when the workers would cut out for the day (and hunt where the tractors had scraped out turf, etc...). However, one particular day during that project, my buddy had gotten there a bit earlier to check it out. He was there at 4:30pm, to see what that day's progress had been on the tractor scraping (so he could call ahead to the others of us who might be joining him, to update us). As he was there on the street assessing the day's work, he noticed that the last of the workers appeared to be leaving for the day at about 4:45pm (because he could see they were the last one leaving, closing the panels on the exit gate, etc.. ). So he thought "great, I can go in now and don't have to wait for later!). So he went in and started that day's hunting. But at 5pm (only 10 or 15 min into his hunt), he heard a loud voice coming from the perimiter. Someone in a park dept. uniform was asking him what the h*ck he was doing, etc.... In short, he got booted My buddy gave lip service, and headed back out of the project Then .... from outside the project (back at his truck where he was putting his gear away), he turned to see that that park person was getting in his own vehicle, and leaving for the day. AT THAT POINT my friend "put 2 and 2 together". That worker apparently worked at the little community rec. hall room that was there in that park (in the portions still un-affected by the construction work going on). And apparently, that little park dept. building closes for each day at 5pm. That worker, therefore, had apparently been closing up for the day at 5pm, and walked out *right* when my friend was in full view on the other side of the fence. Doh! In other words, had my friend followed our normal protocol of waiting till WELL after 5pm, such an encounter would never have occured. And no one else (because it's in full view of streets, etc...) cares less, or would ever take notice.

Therefore, we did the wise thing; The following day, we all now knew to not start before 5:30pm.

There's an example of what I mean by "avoiding the griper". Because if you or I think we're going to get everyone to "love" us, will only be a loosing battle. You will never get every archie, every gardener, every city lawyer to love and sanction you. If you think that's necessary before you can step foot in any sandbox, ..... then me thinks that person needs to choose another hobby.

 

[doc-d]

Thank you for the great discussion and helpful advice.....

 

[allen]

Detect it and detect it good and long!

 

[JeromeAz]

You doubt they would build swings, slides, bbqs and picnic tables on a grave?? That's funny! People don't care, especially the ones that run towns and cities. Where I live we have a cemetery that's about 6 blocks by 4 blocks. You know what's on top of it? Houses, apartments, and a hotel. Its just like the Poltergeist movie. They move the headstones but not graves. There a big empty lot on the main corner, a busy intersection. On that lot someone wanted to buy it and build condos. Once they were told there's bodies there that would have to be dug up and reburied somewhere else they backed out.

One of the home owners found a sinkhole in his front yard. He though maybe he had a leaking pipe that was causing the ground to sink so he started digging. What he found was a coffin with a little girl's skeleton and next to her he found a coffin with an old man's skeleton. Nice find huh. He was never told about the cemetery when he bought the house. They were moved to another cemetery and the guy built a shrine in his front yard for them. That cemetery was full and closed in I believe 1907.

One more! Downtown used to be a cemetery, full of people. Towns people, soldiers from the old cavalry days, fighting Indians. Like the old John Wayne cowboy Indian movies. Did they move the graves? No! Headstones? Yes. What did they put on top? A parking lot! And a lot of cars. Well one day they decided to tear up the parking lot and build a building for the county. What did they find? Bodies! Lots and lots of bodies. So many that it cost the city over a million dollars to dig everyone up and rebury them.

So I don't know how they do it where your from but that's how these morons do it here in Arizona.

Stupid city governments!

 

[YukonCorn]

Cuz you may wake the dead.

 

[scurvy_seadog]

In this modern age of the internet. it confounds me to no end. People come here to look up stuff on getting advice on getting permission. when they can use the same amount of effort to google their city hall, county office, state parks, etc.... All from the comfort of their home with out alerting the nanny state nerdewells of a novel idea of a new regulation. Use common cense I know is is a rare commodity in this modern age we live in. I have yet to go to a government office and ask. I have found what i need to know right on the internet. even printed off a permit for a state park. Gee and when signs go up saying no metal detecting allowed. You can bet your bottom dollar that some oh i need to go ask for permission in person went and asked. Then the Light bulb of Idea for new laws and regs went off. Look it up on line you find nothing then don't worry about it. use common cense!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

scurvy_seadog, a voice of common sense! Thankyou for chiming in. Yes, I've seen it go down EXACTLY LIKE THAT too many times. And pretty soon, the oldtimers are left scratching their heads saying "since when?". And when the trace it back, it's exactly as you say: some skittish person (bless their little hearts) goes into city hall asking "can I?".

Now sure, some cases are not like that. I'm sure some will traced back to holes. But even when you hear THAT excuse given to back up the "no" they just gave, you, I bet that even in THOSE cases, it's merely the "go to" answer they give you, to justify the answer. You know: simply because it's the mental impression they have, when thinking of the issue. And even if they've never seen any holes, they therefore will still say "because of holes". The the skittish newbie goes away with his tail between his legs saying "durned those people who must've left holes".

And this "because you asked" pyschology can happen on a state-wide, or even national levels too!

 

[coinbug]

You doubt they would build swings, slides, bbqs and picnic tables on a grave?? That's funny! People don't care, especially the ones that run towns and cities. Where I live we have a cemetery that's about 6 blocks by 4 blocks. You know what's on top of it? Houses, apartments, and a hotel. Its just like the Poltergeist movie. They move the headstones but not graves. There a big empty lot on the main corner, a busy intersection. On that lot someone wanted to buy it and build condos. Once they were told there's bodies there that would have to be dug up and reburied somewhere else they backed out.

One of the home owners found a sinkhole in his front yard. He though maybe he had a leaking pipe that was causing the ground to sink so he started digging. What he found was a coffin with a little girl's skeleton and next to her he found a coffin with an old man's skeleton. Nice find huh. He was never told about the cemetery when he bought the house. They were moved to another cemetery and the guy built a shrine in his front yard for them. That cemetery was full and closed in I believe 1907.

One more! Downtown used to be a cemetery, full of people. Towns people, soldiers from the old cavalry days, fighting Indians. Like the old John Wayne cowboy Indian movies. Did they move the graves? No! Headstones? Yes. What did they put on top? A parking lot! And a lot of cars. Well one day they decided to tear up the parking lot and build a building for the county. What did they find? Bodies! Lots and lots of bodies. So many that it cost the city over a million dollars to dig everyone up and rebury them.

So I don't know how they do it where your from but that's how these morons do it here in Arizona.

Stupid city governments!

Great stories!

As an aside, and a bit off-thread, it's a good idea to buy title insurance when you purchase a property. It's very cheap and would pay to fix weird stuff like finding sinking graves on your property, in addition, of course, to more mundane things like encroachments and so on.

 

[Produce Guy]

You might be able to help him by using your detector to find the graves and then use spray paint,rocks or something to mark the graves.I remember hearing about a guy who helped a small town find unmarked graves of slaves,by using his metal detector,they slaves were not buried 6 feet under,but some were around 2-3 feet,and what ever metal they had on them ,made the detector beep.

 

[JeromeAz]

I don't know how they do it? I do but I don't? I'm confused. Anyways I know people here are researching ghost towns and when they can't find the graves or they do but don't know who's buried there they use dowsing rods. Like dowsing for water but they're dowsing for bodies. They can tell if its male or female. if its adult or child. One grave they said the dowsing rods went a little crazy because the spirit was angry because he was shot in the back. Not very far from where he was buried. Anybody ever heard of people doing this or how it works?

 

[Edward1976]

Look, I'm not trying to give you moral advice here but you were told not to do detect in an area by a Law Enforcement Officer. Rule number one of the Metal Detecting Code Of Ethics says don't go detecting in places where you don't have permission, and according to him, you don't. Until you get this sorted out with city hall/parks and rec, you need to stay out of the park, it's that simple. If the guy was a pain the first time around, imagine what a pain he'd be the second time dealing with you, not to mention detectorists in the future. Don't give the guy any ammunition.

 

[mustangpalmer1911]

I am a LEO and from the sounds of it..your side of the story anyway... sounds like you have a overzealous my badge makes me better than you local officer. He questioned you and when you provided the proper items for what you were doing he got butt hurt and had to play big boy, what sets off the alarms big time to me was that he never called you back. IF he was questioning himself about if you can be there he would have asked his boss, or the Parks and Recreation office about the park and got back to you. Hell its 2013 I am sure he could have got on his phone, or radio and found out. Sounds alot like he was just flexing his badge. Seems these days way to many police officers especially local, are over the top wanna be tough guys out to get everyone and everything they can(revenge for being the little guy in HS)...harass and menace..... not protect and serve.

Check with the Parks and Recreation office about that park specifically before going back.

 

[JeromeAz]

I am a LEO and from the sounds of it..your side of the story anyway... sounds like you have a overzealous my badge makes me better than you local officer. He questioned you and when you provided the proper items for what you were doing he got butt hurt and had to play big boy, what sets off the alarms big time to me was that he never called you back. IF he was questioning himself about if you can be there he would have asked his boss, or the Parks and Recreation office about the park and got back to you. Hell its 2013 I am sure he could have got on his phone, or radio and found out. Sounds alot like he was just flexing his badge. Seems these days way to many police officers especially local, are over the top wanna be tough guys out to get everyone and everything they can(revenge for being the little guy in HS)...harass and menace..... not protect and serve.

Check with the Parks and Recreation office about that park specifically before going back.

Rock On! Exactly! I'm not a LEO I'm a Sagittarius. Lol! Anyways I agree with you! He made sure he was doing it legally. He got a permit. When the officer saw his permit he should have said OK your good and walked away.

Does a game warden tell you that you have to stop fishing tell he makes sure that your fishing license is ok. No he checks it and walks away.

I could go on and on with examples but its just ridiculous when your doing something legal even have a permit and you still get hassled.

That's my 2¢.

 

[cudamark]

Shows you what good a permit system is. Avoid enacting one in your area if you can!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Shows you what good a permit system is. Avoid enacting one in your area if you can!

Joy of joys right? "permit" just rolls off the tongue, right? You can just show that to a griper, and they slink away in humility, RIGHT? hahaha