Dinner with Doctors

[tonykidd]

I just arrived home from an intimate dinner with 3 archaeologists, 2 of them full professors (George Washington University and University of Arizona) and the other a field archaeologist (Florida State University). I spent two hours picking their brains and exchanging stories. At one point it became clear that the circles they run in, compared to the average citizen, have a knowledge that is typically only shared between them. Their education in human interaction as related to anthropology allows them to think and make deductions based upon a different criteria than laymen. Their knowledge, however, is generally circular since they seem to only preach to the same choir. I commented about this, in that some of the things they take for granted when talking with a colleague are foreign to us as avocationals. To a person they agreed, and noted that public interest in our hobby is dying. Collectors and avocationals have accounted for the majority of finds in America, and as the interest dies, more ancient history will die with it.
Anyway, I learned a few things, and unlearned a few things as well. It's amazing how a different perspective, especially an educated one, can cause your thinking to become more broad. We tend to box ourselves in in much the same way, even on a forum such as this. New ideas and theories aren't always accepted because the longstanding beliefs are hard to break. I highly recommend diversifying your information sources and peer group when it comes to all things Indian; you just may be pleasantly surprised.

 

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[The Grim Reaper]

Yes. They offered some insights and some different points of view I hadn't considered, especially involving trade. Very good stuff.

Can you share with us what they told you. Just curious what they thought of a site in southern Alabama that has Banners, Birdstones, Copper, Mexican, etc, artifacts all on one site. Not being a smart alec here, just honestly curious what they said about this site. Thanks Tony.

 

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[tonykidd]

What things did you unlearn? I like how you are open minded and not afraid to learn something new.

Mainly a reminder to stop thinking in a modern sense, and also trying to make sense of why something was done a certain way. For example, trying to discern the usage for a certain tool, or why certain points are beveled, which I always believed were for a rotational spin. Turns out, they weren't beveled for that reason according to these guys, who made a very compelling argument against.

 

[tonykidd]

Can you share with us what they told you. Just curious what they thought of a site in southern Alabama that has Banners, Birdstones, Copper, Mexican, etc, artifacts all on one site. Not being a smart alec here, just honestly curious what they said about this site. Thanks Tony.

To be honest, they weren't all that impressed, which surprised me. Apparently, there a couple of sites in Kentucky and Louisiana that are producing a hell of a lot more than I'm finding, and along the same lines. They were already intimately familiar with everything I showed them, including the molcajete bowl. The guy from Arizona has seen plenty, and ancient ones at that. I was hoping they would be intrigued, but they see hundreds of new things every week.
The main purpose of the visit was to help classify some points I had from the Archaic period. Apparently, one of the archs is doing a comprehensive categorization of mainly notched points (but also other Archaic points) in the southeastern U.S. in cooperation with a few others. Two of them are knappers as well, and had some very interesting comments on how many of the different type points were made. It was a great discussion of anthropology relating to the structure and culture of different sites.
They were more impressed with artifacts from another site I've stumbled onto in Florida, which falls right on the edge of Paleo and where we've found a number of tools but very few points.
All in all, a good meeting.
To answer your question, I was hoping they would be impressed and hugely interested, but ultimately they weren't. They thought some of the relics were cool, but they see stuff like that all the time and they only really get excited when there's context.

 

[tonykidd]

I found Indain village site --with early Spanish trade beads from 1702 era (when the british came thru and wiped out any Spanish friendly Indain villiages and Spanish mission sites) and even earlier stone hand made beads (coral--rare not many known in Florida) ... at a place called Goffinsville park * in Nassau county ,Florida --well the county wanted a new fishing boat launching pier with paved parking lot --it was just a dirt park with nothing "special" --except the fact it had a pre contact village site on it ... a private archie group was hired -and green lighted the "project"===now all that remains of that village is the items that I collected thru the years --one female state of Florida archie who I showed them to and told the story to said with a sniff of distain --well at least their safe from looters now (meaning me) ---my reply was that since they were putting in a parking lot they dug several feet deep to put in a pea gravel limestone base and trucked the dirt out to some land fill area --so yah its real safe now...

There are idiots in every group, and unfortunately some of them are in charge. I've had the exact same experience with private groups; they manage to look the other way when money is in their hands. There is a very militant anti-collector group as well, but I've learned to ignore them and only deal with the friendlies.

 

[Bow Only]

Mainly a reminder to stop thinking in a modern sense, and also trying to make sense of why something was done a certain way. For example, trying to discern the usage for a certain tool, or why certain points are beveled, which I always believed were for a rotational spin. Turns out, they weren't beveled for that reason according to these guys, who made a very compelling argument against.

Points were beveled to conserve material when resharpening.

 

[sandchip]

Points were beveled to conserve material when resharpening.

...and to sharpen in two steps using pressure flaking, as opposed to four with percussion followed by pressure retouch, creating a sturdier sharpened edge with the point remaining hafted. Ballistic tests showed years ago that bevelling results in no appreciable rotation, if any, in flight.

 

[autographcollector11]

Archaeologists are very competitive. Jobs are limited and funding is tight. Their inner circle consists of those that have the same educational background. Why would they divulge info to you knowing that it could be used to take part of their job away. I get their perspective.

 

[Ici]

Both my Father and Uncle (both have passed ) were archaeologists so I have a different perspective on archaeologist than most on this board. I remember as a kid Dad would have people over to the house all the time talking about artifacts and I never heard him talk down to anyone. Again just my perspective and im sure im a little bias because he is my Dad. Anyways i enjoy reading everyones opinions.

 

[tonykidd]

...and to sharpen in two steps using pressure flaking, as opposed to four with percussion followed by pressure retouch, creating a sturdier sharpened edge with the point remaining hafted. Ballistic tests showed years ago that bevelling results in no appreciable rotation, if any, in flight.

Bingo. Then the beveling generally stopped, which it wouldn't have if the flight path and accuracy were improved.

 

[fishstick]

From everything I've read or seen suggest that beveled blades were knives and not meant to be thrown.

 

[sandchip]

Both my Father and Uncle (both have passed ) were archaeologists so I have a different perspective on archaeologist than most on this board. I remember as a kid Dad would have people over to the house all the time talking about artifacts and I never heard him talk down to anyone. Again just my perspective and im sure im a little bias because he is my Dad. Anyways i enjoy reading everyones opinions.

Sounds like you had a great dad. He probably knew a hell of a lot more than many by keeping an open mind toward collectors, realizing that it can't all be learned in a sterile classroom environment or by listening to an echo chamber of like-minded peers. It's good that your father didn't fall prey to the ivory tower syndrome that so many succumb to during their formative years under the academia class. I hope that none of my previous comments were taken as a blanket condemnation of archaeologists. There are good ones in every bunch. When I started making signs 35 years ago when you had to know how to sling a brush to make it before the industry became saturated with computer-aided signmaking technology, everybody just assumed that I was a drunk because of widespread stereotyping that every sign painter had to have a drink to be steady enough to letter a sign.

 

[Ici]

Sounds like you had a great dad. He probably knew a hell of a lot more than many by keeping an open mind toward collectors, realizing that it can't all be learned in a sterile classroom environment or by listening to an echo chamber of like-minded peers. It's good that your father didn't fall prey to the ivory tower syndrome that so many succumb to during their formative years under the academia class. I hope that none of my previous comments were taken as a blanket condemnation of archaeologists. There are good ones in every bunch. When I started making signs 35 years ago when you had to know how to sling a brush to make it before the industry became saturated with computer-aided signmaking technology, everybody just assumed that I was a drunk because of widespread stereotyping that every sign painter had to have a drink to be steady enough to letter a sign.

Sandchip
You in no way offended me. Hopefully i am a lot like my Father and i have an open mind to every ones opinion. Like I said im new to this forum and have just started back getting into Native Americian Artifacts. I lost the passion after my father's passing but realized that is the last that he would have wanted. So im gonna get the shovel and water boots out of storage and get to lookin. Thanks for taking the time to respond.