Do you need permission/salvage permit on all finds?

[Darren in NC]

What if you came across an unregistered cargo of silver bars and there is no wreck left - just ballast. You can't find any identifying artifacts other than dated coins to determine ship's ID. Do you still need the state's permission to retreive them?

I know what many of you would want to do ;-) but what's really legal?

Darren

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Diving for Pleasure and Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[Highmountain]

Hi Darren. Depends on how old the wreck is (and the bars and coins). The Antiquities Act will almost certainly make your find illegal to retrieve if the wreck's old enough to be gone. But the assayer marks on the bars and dates on the coins are probably sufficient to determine the age and legality, along with which 50 percent belongs to the State, and which other 50 percent belongs to the feds.

Jack

 

[Darren in NC]

Does the same apply to tossed cargo? Maybe a safe was thrown overboard or valuable cargo tossed to lighten the load during a storm. Same set of rules?

 

[Highmountain]

My understanding is that it's a matter of whether it's raw mineral, untouched by man and still exactly where nature put it, or artifact of any description, including ore. Once it's been contaminated by human conciousness it qualifies as an artifact and becomes the property of the school children of Texas, the US Department of some damned thing or other, etc. Provided, of course, it's on any kind of public land or watercourse. If it's raw mineral, but in an abandoned mine older than 50 years there's one incident I heard rumored a few years ago was undergoing the legal test of whether it's an artifact. The doors, I'd say, are swinging shut.

The mineral rights ownership for minerals on public land don't always belong to the US Government, which can be a problem, should you be lucky enough to discover something in one of those places where it's public land, but still legal. And the mineral rights for private land might belong to Shell Oil, the State you live in, or almost anyone else. Meanwhile, the US Army Corps of Engineers owns various still-being-defined rights on every watercourse in the United States up to whatever point the watershed diminishes to 5 acres.

There's a 30 mile long, 7-12 mile wide lava flow near me that's been designated part of Malpais National something-or-other. The surrounding country and islands and peninsulae within the flow are sandstone. Picking up a piece of that sandstone can earn you a jail cell or a fine, and frequently does earn one or the other for the unsuspecting visitors travelling IH 40 between California and all those places rumored to be east of here. Same's true for people who covet the little shrimp that show up to eat the mosquito larvae in the tinajas of the surface of the sandstone for their home aquaria, though such thieves and rapers of nature are gradually being weeded out from the general population.

It's evident that we, the citizens of this democracy are just damned tired of people hauling off our stuff and we plan to put a stop to it.

Jack

 

[Darren in NC]

I guess it doesn't make sense to me that beachcombers can retrieve artifacts, but divers have a different set of rules. But then again, the gov't never made much sense to me anyway ;-)

Darren

 

[Highmountain]

I've been wrong enough times to know I might be wrong now. Maybe someone else here has a more thorough knowledge of the laws. My guess is that beachcombers are on shaky ground if they retrieve artifacts old enough to fall under the antiquities act when the artifacts are on public property. You asked specifically about legalities. If you're really that concerned about staying between the fences you might want to talk to a shyster lawyer or do a websearch so you can study the statutes for yourself.

Jack

 

[wreckdiver1715]

The law will very from state to state. In the state of Florida, anything from the low tide line to three miles out is under state jurisdiction (this also includes all navigable waterways inland). For treasure hunting the ocean floor will require a permit from the state just to look for a wreck in a defined area of the sea. Another permit is required from the state for recovery of any wreck that you found with the search permit. Twenty percent of anything you recover goes to the state, and the rest goes to the treasure salvers.
However, anything found on the beach between the low tide line and the dune is yours to keep.
In the state of Texas you can forget about it if you are not connected to some university. Treasure hunters are not welcome in Texas waters.

 

[Charles,Oak Island]

Abandoned Shipwreck Act of 1987

http://www2.cr.nps.gov/laws/ship.htm

 

[Charles,Oak Island]

here is NC law:

Salvage of Abandoned Shipwrecks and Other Underwater Archeological Sites
North Carolina
General Statutes Chapter 121, Article 3
North Carolina's underwater archaeology program was instituted in 1967 as a result of this law. Subsection 121-22 establishes title for the State to all shipwrecks, vessels, cargoes, tackle and underwater archaeological artifacts abandoned for more than ten (10) years and lying on the bottoms of navigable waters and ocean waters from within one marine league seaward from the Atlantic seashore extreme low watermark.
The Division of Archives and History is the custodian of all shipwrecks and other underwater archaeological resources and is charged with promulgating necessary rules and regulations for the protection of those resources. The Underwater Archaeology Unit (UAU), Office of State Archaeology, State Historic Preservation Office, is the professional staff responsible for conducting or supervising the survey, protection, preservation and systematic recovery of underwater archaeological resources. The UAU also coordinates and monitors progress and results of permits issued by the Department of Cultural Resources.
Permits are required for the exploration, recovery or salvage of state-owned abandoned shipwrecks and underwater archaeological artifacts. Permits may be issued on the following basis:
? the applicant has adequate funds, equipment, and facilities to undertake and complete the operation, is capable of providing supervision of all phases of the operation and has demonstrated the ability to carry out acceptable exploration, recovery or salvage projects;
? the proposed activity is undertaken for the purpose of furthering archaeological knowledge in the public interest;
? the proposed activity employs accepted techniques of survey, excavation, recovery, recording, preservation, and analysis used in exploration, recovery and salvage projects; and
? the underwater archaeological artifacts recovered during the proposed project will be properly conserved and these artifacts and copies of associated archaeological records and data will be curated in an acceptable manner.
Laws Index
NC Archaeology Home

"Webster:
? League, from Webster's 1913: "A measure of length or distance, varying in different countries from about 2.4 to 4.6 English statute miles of 5280 feet each, and used (as a land measure) chiefly on the continent of Europe, and in the Spanish parts of America. The marine league of England and the United States is equal to three marine, or geographical, miles of 6080 feet each. Note: The English land league is equal to three English statute miles. The Spanish and French leagues vary in each country according to usage and the kind of measurement to which they are applied. The Dutch and German leagues contain about four geographical miles, or about 4.6 English statute miles."

 

[oldfart]

MKy knowledge is derived from operating a salvage company in UK waters
Firstly by international law all wrecks and/or cargo belong to the owners still, these can be the original shipowner in the case of hulls or the insurers in case of cargo, this in fact means that ownership of Spanish Plate Fleet cargo ,for instance, is still vested in the government of Spain as successors to the Spanish Crown. The hull might be a private hired vessel.
So if you find something like this it is important that you identify the ship and its owners as well as the cargo owners and then go about obtaining an agreement (which the Spanish Government for instance is quite willing to do)
Unfortunately all sorts of authorities have tried to overlay the International laws with ones of their own, usually at the behest of University archeologists and like minded individuals!
In more modern times Lloyds of London will be willing to sell the hull/cargo on behalf of owners, oncer you have ownership of the wreck as your own property you are entitled to salvage anything you want, I expect that youm would have to excersize due care not to disturb the area too much

 

[wreckdiver1715]

You are correct as to wrecks in International waters (12 miles off the US shore and beyond). However, since the UNESCO treaty is dead in the water, the law of Salvage and finds still applies.
It will be a cold day that the USA would give up our Sovran rights to Spain or any other nation to treasures in our State or Territorial waters. Spain plundered its wealth from Mexico and Columbia; I would think that they would have more right to claim the treasures than Spain. But alas the UNESCO thing sank to the bottom of the sea and the bleeding hearts at the UN can?t stop crying about it.
The SS Republic (US registered vessel), was found in international water last year. The folks at OMR (Odyssey Marine Exploration http://www.shipwreck.net/ ) found the ship and all its treasure. OMR paid the insurance company that had paid the owners at the end of the Civil War, and a federal judge transferred ownership of the SS Republic to OMR.
If Bob Ballard had laid claim to the Titanic as was his choice, he would own that shipwreck today. So why did Bob not lay claim to the Titanic? And why is he so bent with people recovering artifacts and putting them on display for the entire world to see, OH! YES! And god forbid that these folks should make a profit, How Un-American of them. I think Bob is still upset about that UNESCO deal falling apart.

 

[oldfart]

All waters are included allthough as I say governments will attempt to get round that and it is of course etremely expensive to take these things to international courts.
The law after all is very neccessary even today, otherwise you might have some Mid East state claiming a nuclear warship that happened to be wrecked on its coast and proceeding to salvage all its warheads!!!