FLEA Market FIND.
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cheese
Silver Member
Nice reply joshuaream. I'm not really an expert, but I've been hunting, collecting, and studying points since 1986... for what it's worth. I was just going to say I would not buy it based on the pics shown. Closer, clearer shots may change my mind, but to put it simply, that point has the wrong look. I hope it's real for you. I rarely see real points at flea markets. It's a pretty one nonetheless.
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pointdlr
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Intereting Thread!!!!!!! Hits on just about every issue in collecting prehistoric artifacts.
Choo- I would seriously take a long look at that piece. I don't like the form and overall shape(particularly the base), can't ID the material, feel it is too thin for size, and don't like the flaking patterns. I hope it works out for you, and the piece is old. I wouldn't send it to an authenticator. I could write a book on the scam that is authentication. If you want to find out, drive up to Columbus on November 15th, and walk around the Ohio Arch Show. Show it to 5 people. You will know quickly, make some friends who can help you in the future, see some great rocks, and maybe enter an artifact in the field find competition. They won't charge you $25 + 2 ways shipping.....
Joshua- You might be too much of a politician, but thanks for the great stuff. I wanted to make a similar post, but knew I would come off like a know-it-all jerk. They way you did it, they might learn something, and not just curse your name.
Trevmma- Your awesome dove is just that. Made with all the classic Ohio big dove characteristics. Proper in all ways, and a great buy.
Honkeyflintman- Were you talking about the parallel pressure flaking seen on resharpened doves along the bevel? I would have to disagree with you on Trevmma's piece. We should sit down at the Ohio Arch meeting and talk rocks. I'm sure we can all learn something. Do you attend the meetings?
Regards,
Jon Dickinson.
Choo- I would seriously take a long look at that piece. I don't like the form and overall shape(particularly the base), can't ID the material, feel it is too thin for size, and don't like the flaking patterns. I hope it works out for you, and the piece is old. I wouldn't send it to an authenticator. I could write a book on the scam that is authentication. If you want to find out, drive up to Columbus on November 15th, and walk around the Ohio Arch Show. Show it to 5 people. You will know quickly, make some friends who can help you in the future, see some great rocks, and maybe enter an artifact in the field find competition. They won't charge you $25 + 2 ways shipping.....
Joshua- You might be too much of a politician, but thanks for the great stuff. I wanted to make a similar post, but knew I would come off like a know-it-all jerk. They way you did it, they might learn something, and not just curse your name.
Trevmma- Your awesome dove is just that. Made with all the classic Ohio big dove characteristics. Proper in all ways, and a great buy.
Honkeyflintman- Were you talking about the parallel pressure flaking seen on resharpened doves along the bevel? I would have to disagree with you on Trevmma's piece. We should sit down at the Ohio Arch meeting and talk rocks. I'm sure we can all learn something. Do you attend the meetings?
Regards,
Jon Dickinson.
ohioaxeman
Bronze Member
Yes... very interesting post. This is how we learn, little by little. I would go back to the Flea market, and browse around and see if this guy has another artifact that he puts out when his other one sells! I knew a person that bought a watch at a flea market, and was told that it was very rare, but the guy had a box of them, and he would just get another out after it sold! plus he may be in cahoots with another dealer on the other side of the market, and they just switch back and forth everytime one sells, so as not to make anyone suspicious. i hope it turns out authentic Choo. 
Jackson Galleries or Davis Artifacts are two of the top authenticators, their reputations speak for themselves. Both are about $25 plus shipping per piece.
The Ohio show is also a way to have some one look at it, although you will not get it papered for free. I have attended shows in KS, MO, and IL and learned a lot.....
The Ohio show is also a way to have some one look at it, although you will not get it papered for free. I have attended shows in KS, MO, and IL and learned a lot.....
creek astronaut
Bronze Member
now this is gettin good.too many quotes to put in here.joshuaream,when i said parallell flaking i meant on resharpened ones,along the blade edges,my mistake i should have been more clear.now i am not sure exactly what you call the flaking style of a dove,it isnt random and it isnt oblique transverse,atleast we agree on that.horizontal transverse would be what i am trying to say i guess?i do agree with most of what you had to say.but i dont agree on trevmma dove,and that is what sparked my response in the first place.something about that piece just isnt right imo.doves almost always have real good flaking,imo that one doesnt.as far as the "eliptical blade" term i did get that from overstreet lol,i couldnt find a better term to describe the blade shape of a dove,well what i think a classic dove blade looks like.i just reread your response and you said parallell flaking is like oblique transverse to you?when i think parallell flaking i think going from blade edge to blade edge horizontally with the flakes parallell to each other.oblique transverse flaking is parallell but goes at an angle from blade edge to blade edge.are we on the same page?that type of flaking is not what i was refering to.i guess it is sometimes difficult to describe in words what we are looking at when we are looking at it.good discussion and appreciate the response,very informative.this is why i like this place.
creek astronaut
Bronze Member
pointdr,no need to bring politics into this discussion.lol.i appreciate all opinoins,isnt that why we are here?we are all know it all jerks when we are on the internet.just joking but you know what i mean.i guess we will agree to disagree on trevs dove,and yes i was refering to the pressure flaking on a beveled edge.i should have been more clear.i will be at the aso show sunday if you want to talk rocks.i am always up for that.send me a pm and tell me where to find you.my huntin buddy pickaway knows you i think,maybe he will be goin.
trevmma
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I will be brining that dove up there during the show, yeah up close my dove hasvery little pressure flaking if any, but has maqny miniral deposits in the notches and the loose hinge fractures show a very good patina with debree underneth. my test i try my best to scratch of mineral deposits with my wifes finger nails, alos i always clean my points off but there is allways that dirt you cant get off no matter how much you wash it.If you buy a point with dirt on it and it comes off no problem then its fake in my book, cause we all wash are new points off with water when we first find them. thats not your case, i know, thats just how i tell before i buy a point. you would be amazed what you find with a little bit of saliva on you finger
Th3rty7
Silver Member
Here's a question for the dovetail experts...If Cobbs blades are preforms for early archaic types(dovetail, thebes, lost lake) Why do you see some of these points unbeveled? It's always sort of bothered me because some people call them a first stage dove, and that doesn't make sense because it had bevels even before it had notches.
trevmma
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i cant see them being pre forms but maybe they could be post forms from the bases breaking and so they just fininshed off with the base. maybe thats why most are beveled also
uniface
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Thirty7 : If you're letting Dovetail NON experts weigh in, here goes :
It seems fairly well established that the makers of Plevna Cluster points controlled the choicest lithic sources, cranking out huge numbers of them for trade, while the contemporary Kirk Cluster makers made do with whatever else was available elsewhere. (Not too many Flintridge Kirk Points. Or Stillwells, &c.).
With this in mind, I've long suspected (assumed) that what they traded was not finished points, but preforms ready for whatever notching configuration the end user wanted to work into them. (Dovetails alone come in six or seven varieties, plus Thebes points [another several], McCorkles, et al.).
Assuming this, Cobbs Knives of Flintridge, Burlington &c. would have been preforms used "as is" rather than modified for hafting (which, given how common "fracture bases" are, was a risky strategy for penny-pinchers). Unhafted knives were in use long before, and continued long afterward anyways -- nothing fundamentally new or unusual in them aside from shape and beveling.
My two cents' worth
It seems fairly well established that the makers of Plevna Cluster points controlled the choicest lithic sources, cranking out huge numbers of them for trade, while the contemporary Kirk Cluster makers made do with whatever else was available elsewhere. (Not too many Flintridge Kirk Points. Or Stillwells, &c.).
With this in mind, I've long suspected (assumed) that what they traded was not finished points, but preforms ready for whatever notching configuration the end user wanted to work into them. (Dovetails alone come in six or seven varieties, plus Thebes points [another several], McCorkles, et al.).
Assuming this, Cobbs Knives of Flintridge, Burlington &c. would have been preforms used "as is" rather than modified for hafting (which, given how common "fracture bases" are, was a risky strategy for penny-pinchers). Unhafted knives were in use long before, and continued long afterward anyways -- nothing fundamentally new or unusual in them aside from shape and beveling.
My two cents' worth
joshuaream
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Uniface, that is a very solid/comprehensive answer, and a lot more concise than I can be... And it's an answer that also draws out a very neat distinction between Kirk cluster and St. Charles/Plevena cluster points (I'm going back to saying Dovetail because it's easier to type.)
Kirk sites are common in the Midwest from Ontario on down, but especially common in the Ohio River valley. Some of them like Swans Landing, and the Cesaer's Casino in Indiana site near Louisville have produced hundreds and hundreds of kirk points all made with very local materials, as well as animal bones, tools, lithic workshops, tube bannerstones, etc. even some burials. The animal bones show that Kirk peoples ate a lot of rabbit, racoon, turtles, fish, with far lesser numbers of what we think of as traditional game animals like deer, elk, bear. They probably didn't hunt over huge areas, and utilized local resources. Dovetails are found over a similar area, but to date very few dovetail sites have been found and none even remotely as 'rich' in information as even a minor kirk rockshelter. It's really not clear who the Dovetail people were, but as Uniface pointed out, we know that during the early archaic period they controlled several main quarries (Flintridge, Harrison/Wyandotte County hornstone, some of the Coshocton and other black flint quarries in Ohio, etc.) All of which lends credence to the idea that Dovetails were an imported/traded commodity, while Kirks were made locally with local materials. Note, there are some dovetails made with local materials, which could have been transference of technology, but most were probably made at centralized locations. As you get to Illinois/Missouri they might have been made on a more local level, explaining the greater variety of St. Charles/Dovetail blades found in those states.
Back to the idea of Cobbs being preforms for archaic points... Personally, I think too many knives are called Cobbs blades. I think there were true preforms (either thinned quarry blanks, or large core bifaces that were tools which were reduced clovis style down to another tool, and late stage bifaces that were going to be made into a specific point) and then there are a series of hand held, unnotched knives that include the Cobbs that were finished tools. Cobbs have some unique traits and in my opinion were a hand held knife that was resharped and reused to the point of getting down to a drill like form and then discarded. Their distribution is heavier south of the classic range of doves, and nearly absent in the northern part of the range. Kirk sites produce a lot of smaller Cobb like preforms, but so have some sites that produce Lost Lake and Thebes points as well. They haven't been found on Dovetail sites, but then again there are only two or three small dovetails sites so the sample is probably too small for conculsions.
If any of you get a chance to see Bob Converse's collection, or pictures/pieces from Stan Copeland's collection, there are un-notched dovetails (big flint ridge bifaces built like dovetails) but I don't think they are related to the Cobbs type. I think most classic ohio-style Dovetails were notched when made, and then progressively resharped after trading. (Heck, look at all the examples of 5, 6 and the few 7 inch finished dovetails with very little resharpening.) Even two of the pieces posted in this thread are large pieces with heavy percussion flaking, and very little retouch. I don't think ancient peoples would use Cobbs blade as a hand held knife, resharpen and reuse it; then decide to reflake the entire surface with percussion flaking, and finally notch it to get a finished Dovetail.
Kirk sites are common in the Midwest from Ontario on down, but especially common in the Ohio River valley. Some of them like Swans Landing, and the Cesaer's Casino in Indiana site near Louisville have produced hundreds and hundreds of kirk points all made with very local materials, as well as animal bones, tools, lithic workshops, tube bannerstones, etc. even some burials. The animal bones show that Kirk peoples ate a lot of rabbit, racoon, turtles, fish, with far lesser numbers of what we think of as traditional game animals like deer, elk, bear. They probably didn't hunt over huge areas, and utilized local resources. Dovetails are found over a similar area, but to date very few dovetail sites have been found and none even remotely as 'rich' in information as even a minor kirk rockshelter. It's really not clear who the Dovetail people were, but as Uniface pointed out, we know that during the early archaic period they controlled several main quarries (Flintridge, Harrison/Wyandotte County hornstone, some of the Coshocton and other black flint quarries in Ohio, etc.) All of which lends credence to the idea that Dovetails were an imported/traded commodity, while Kirks were made locally with local materials. Note, there are some dovetails made with local materials, which could have been transference of technology, but most were probably made at centralized locations. As you get to Illinois/Missouri they might have been made on a more local level, explaining the greater variety of St. Charles/Dovetail blades found in those states.
Back to the idea of Cobbs being preforms for archaic points... Personally, I think too many knives are called Cobbs blades. I think there were true preforms (either thinned quarry blanks, or large core bifaces that were tools which were reduced clovis style down to another tool, and late stage bifaces that were going to be made into a specific point) and then there are a series of hand held, unnotched knives that include the Cobbs that were finished tools. Cobbs have some unique traits and in my opinion were a hand held knife that was resharped and reused to the point of getting down to a drill like form and then discarded. Their distribution is heavier south of the classic range of doves, and nearly absent in the northern part of the range. Kirk sites produce a lot of smaller Cobb like preforms, but so have some sites that produce Lost Lake and Thebes points as well. They haven't been found on Dovetail sites, but then again there are only two or three small dovetails sites so the sample is probably too small for conculsions.
If any of you get a chance to see Bob Converse's collection, or pictures/pieces from Stan Copeland's collection, there are un-notched dovetails (big flint ridge bifaces built like dovetails) but I don't think they are related to the Cobbs type. I think most classic ohio-style Dovetails were notched when made, and then progressively resharped after trading. (Heck, look at all the examples of 5, 6 and the few 7 inch finished dovetails with very little resharpening.) Even two of the pieces posted in this thread are large pieces with heavy percussion flaking, and very little retouch. I don't think ancient peoples would use Cobbs blade as a hand held knife, resharpen and reuse it; then decide to reflake the entire surface with percussion flaking, and finally notch it to get a finished Dovetail.
Th3rty7
Silver Member
Thanks for the informative explanations guys. Not trying to derail the thead here.
creek astronaut
Bronze Member
LMAO!!!!Experts??This has been a great post and it all started at the flea market.lol.joshuaream,I got a few questions for you.What is your definition of a dovetail site??Have you ever found a Dovetail?Dovetail people,please explain that?And these "Dovetail people" controlled flint quarries??Where did you get this information?thirty7 said:Here's a question for the dovetail experts...If Cobbs blades are preforms for early archaic types(dovetail, thebes, lost lake) Why do you see some of these points unbeveled? It's always sort of bothered me because some people call them a first stage dove, and that doesn't make sense because it had bevels even before it had notches.
Th3rty7
Silver Member
Imo a Cobbs blade is an unnotched preform and not a handheld knife. Two notches and you've got a dovetail, or lost lake.
creek astronaut
Bronze Member
i agree 37,cobbs caches have been found associated w dovetails.not that this means anything but i have found cobbs and doves at a site i hunt.but what do i know. 
uniface
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I think you're right, Josh. I hadn't thought it through well enough. Doves are thicker in relation to size, for one thing. Cobbs' couldn't be Dove preforms.
Th3rty7
Silver Member
uniface said:
I've got thin Cobbs and thick ones, same with dovetails. From Overstreet guide 10th edition " These are un-notched preforms for early archaic beveled types such as Decatur, Dovetail, Lost Lake, etc. Has been found with St. Charles points in a cache at the Olive Branch site and dated to 9300-9400 carbon years before present."
The fact they have been found in caches with dovetail points is proof enough for me.
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Um here in Tennessee dove season is very short and you can only take eleven a day. I like at least 6 at a sitting wrapped in bacon. I am lobbying to make it 12 a day so my meals are complete.Hope its a good one looks like you got some very knowledgable opinions from all the spectrums.
Happy Huntin !
I found one broken dove on a site and no other doves have turned up, but maybe some day. I did just find a monster 3 5/8 inch dove at an antique shop for 250 dollars. I told the man who found it about this site and this thread. I wish I had 250 extra to buy that thing as I am sure one could get more out of it. The one this gentleman was selling was surrounded by many other field grade artifacts. This particular dove looked much different in the flaking than the one that started this thread.
Jake
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