Floridas rivers
- Thread starter flotsam
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DR
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Hi Flotsam, welcome aboard.
I have done over 175 dives all over the Suwannee River from the Georgia border to the Gulf of Mexico. Unfortunately I did not discover the Joy of MDing til 99% of those dives were behind me.
That said, the Suwannee is full of goodies. Anything that could be dropped or tossed off a boat, heck even the boat itself (I have found a few) is down there waiting for you.
I quit counting fishing poles I've found years ago. Anywhere there is a tree with a rope swing you can bet there is something there. the first time I MD'd an old dirt boat ramp I know of I found a 42 Merc.My first one ever.
It's commonly known the river is choice hunting for artifacts and fossils.
Everything from pirate treasures to civil war to stuff tossed from bridges.YA NEVER KNOW!
I once found a brass rifle buttplate that I know is really old and I am going to post a picture of it soon as I have no clue as to it's true identity and think some one out here at TNET may be able to give some insight on it.
Right know is the best it's been for diving since 1987. you can see fine at 30ft. a little dark but you can see.
Most years as a rule the water is so dark a dive light or two is mandatory at high noon.
In other words NOW is the time to dive, before the rains come back and stain the water.
the river bottom is mostly lime rock and sand, Good bottom. And that is anywhere on the river.
In the Lower Suwannee where the river gets real big, the straight aways will be sand mostly and it can be very deep, 10ft or more.
The places to dive are the outside curves where you will drop off the sand banks into nice rock bottom averaging about 20ft deep. Also in the lower river, at some places one step from shore and it drops right off like a cliff. Come to think of it that can be the case anywhere on the Suwannee.
The current in the far northern reaches in FLA is swift and you need plenty of weight to keep you glued to the bottom. A lot of weight! But at least it's alot shallower up there. Even the lower river moves along at a good clip. also the last 20 miles or so from the Gulf are subject to tidal influences and the current can and does commonly reverse itself. I find a compass is most usefull.
Also don't forget the tons of springs that dump into the river.
A good website to check out is treasuresites.com
I hope this helps you out and good luck. You may run into me out there.
DR
I have done over 175 dives all over the Suwannee River from the Georgia border to the Gulf of Mexico. Unfortunately I did not discover the Joy of MDing til 99% of those dives were behind me.
That said, the Suwannee is full of goodies. Anything that could be dropped or tossed off a boat, heck even the boat itself (I have found a few) is down there waiting for you.
I quit counting fishing poles I've found years ago. Anywhere there is a tree with a rope swing you can bet there is something there. the first time I MD'd an old dirt boat ramp I know of I found a 42 Merc.My first one ever.
It's commonly known the river is choice hunting for artifacts and fossils.
Everything from pirate treasures to civil war to stuff tossed from bridges.YA NEVER KNOW!
I once found a brass rifle buttplate that I know is really old and I am going to post a picture of it soon as I have no clue as to it's true identity and think some one out here at TNET may be able to give some insight on it.
Right know is the best it's been for diving since 1987. you can see fine at 30ft. a little dark but you can see.
Most years as a rule the water is so dark a dive light or two is mandatory at high noon.
In other words NOW is the time to dive, before the rains come back and stain the water.
the river bottom is mostly lime rock and sand, Good bottom. And that is anywhere on the river.
In the Lower Suwannee where the river gets real big, the straight aways will be sand mostly and it can be very deep, 10ft or more.
The places to dive are the outside curves where you will drop off the sand banks into nice rock bottom averaging about 20ft deep. Also in the lower river, at some places one step from shore and it drops right off like a cliff. Come to think of it that can be the case anywhere on the Suwannee.
The current in the far northern reaches in FLA is swift and you need plenty of weight to keep you glued to the bottom. A lot of weight! But at least it's alot shallower up there. Even the lower river moves along at a good clip. also the last 20 miles or so from the Gulf are subject to tidal influences and the current can and does commonly reverse itself. I find a compass is most usefull.
Also don't forget the tons of springs that dump into the river.
A good website to check out is treasuresites.com
I hope this helps you out and good luck. You may run into me out there.
DR
newnan man
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Remember the laws in Florida prohibit collecting anything OLD!!!!! Fossils can be collected if you buy a permit and sharks teeth are allowed anywhere. Stupid law? You bet! Enforced? You bet!!! So get the fossil permit and you have a reason to be diving. Stash the good finds and pick up a few bones to keep in your bag.
I don't dive anymore but collected artifacts from many rivers before it became illegal. Unethical collectors and stuck up state archaeologist ruined it for those just wanting to collect as a hobby. Why leave an artifact on the bottom of a river? It was never intended to be there and is out of context to any site or strata for research. If it's over 50 years old it's off limits.
I don't dive anymore but collected artifacts from many rivers before it became illegal. Unethical collectors and stuck up state archaeologist ruined it for those just wanting to collect as a hobby. Why leave an artifact on the bottom of a river? It was never intended to be there and is out of context to any site or strata for research. If it's over 50 years old it's off limits.
DR
Jr. Member
You nailed it newnan man.
The times they are a changing and not for the better I'm afraid.
The fossil permit can be obtained from the the Florida Museum of Natural History at the University of Florida.The guy to ask to speak to is Richard Hulbert. Or you can go to their web site and download the application. the fee is $5.00 and you have to sign it and mail it to them. Also you are required to fill out an annual report detailing your finds in order to renew the permit for the next year.
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Follow this link, it will get you there, and give you lots of very good info along the way.
http://www.isolatedfindspolicy.org/
Tom
http://www.isolatedfindspolicy.org/
Tom
DR
Jr. Member
.
Thanks for the link, but I still can't find any legal definition stating an archaeological resource is some thing 50 years old.
I talked to a state archie about beach hunting and mentioned it on a previous post.
That includes your 5 year old grand daughter with a pail and plastic shovel digging sand castles on the beach. Sad to say but I am of the opinion our fine elected legislators in Tallahassee are utter and complete morons!
What he said is anything no matter how old is is off limits and if you read Florida statute chapter 267 you will notice that the only reference made is the word specimen which I read to mean they can deem anything they want an archaeological resource.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong here because I only want to know the absolute truth of the matter and I know that laws are written in a way that every word has meaning and if it ain't there then it does not count. And if it is vague, you better really watch out cause the state has a lot more money to prosecute you than you have to defend yourself.
newnan man
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It used to be 75 years but I read somewhere that it was reduced to 50. I will attempt to find it. These are some links to statues pertaining to collecting.
For specific information, refer to Rules IA-32, 1A-44, IA-45 and IA46, Florida Administrative
Code; Chapters 267 and 872, Florida Statutes; the Archaeological Resources Protection Act
(Public Law 96-96 as amended; 16 U.S.C. 470aa-470mm); and the Native American Graves
Protection and Repatriation Act (Public Law 101601; 25 U.S.C. 3001-3013).
For specific information, refer to Rules IA-32, 1A-44, IA-45 and IA46, Florida Administrative
Code; Chapters 267 and 872, Florida Statutes; the Archaeological Resources Protection Act
(Public Law 96-96 as amended; 16 U.S.C. 470aa-470mm); and the Native American Graves
Protection and Repatriation Act (Public Law 101601; 25 U.S.C. 3001-3013).
newnan man
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Good info from Matt Mattson of Treasure Dive Sites:
Artifacts
Artifacts are a touchy and often bewildering subject here in Florida, where it seems every other scuba shop has an endless array of spearheads and pottery prominently on display, or offer routine "artifact dive trips," while the state's historical division threatens to prosecute anyone so much as looking at whatever it is they define as an artifact. So far as I can tell, the definition of artifact or junk seems to be connected with monetary value. I find it strange, that in a state where miles of land are bulldozed, paved or platted for housing each and every day, the state would direct resources towards the prosecution of a citizen picking up an arrowhead -- but they do. The federal government passed laws to prevent the looting of Indian graves (which I support) but now seems to take the narrow view that any artifact in your possession must mean you've looted a grave somewhere, so they can take your car, search your house, break you financially (which I don't support), and put you in jail on felony charges. One has to wonder where it will all end. You should be aware, that the archaeological community, in general, does not view the public as being responsible enough to report finds, and, in an us and them mentality, have painted collectors as thieves! Speaking in doublespeak, about being in a "race" with treasure hunters to find the "best" finds before they are "destroyed" by "looting," and about how the publics property must be "protected," the archaeological community convinced the Florida legislators that something must be done, so, in this air of archaeological paranoia, Florida enacted a bureaucratic law that even bans metal detecting on state lands. Since Florida claims all submerged lands, and everything between the sea and high tide line as its own (another bureaucratic law), this law was a coup for the archaeologist, effectively making anyone picking up anything a criminal, the deciding issue being selective enforcement (the founding fathers just rolled over again).
If you think the above has nothing to do with you, think again, because Florida is actively buying property around springs and rivers in the interests of "protection," and one of the first things that always goes up after a state purchase is the don't sign: don't trespass; don't camp; don't fish; don't hunt; don't dive. We are losing our best and our traditional diving sites to the bureaucrats, and for the most part, without a whimper. It never ceases to amaze me that the day before the State takes over a spring site, people are swimming, diving, hanging on rope swings, and camping around the spring as they have traditionally done since time immemorial, and the day after, none of these activities are allowed because the State can't manage them. You can make a difference by writing a letter of complaint to the Florida Governor, at: Governor Jeb Bush, Office of the Governor; The Capitol; Tallahassee, Fl 32399 - 0001, or contact him direct, email to: fl_governor@eog.state.fl.us and voice your opinion on the matter. You do count, because it is your tourist dollars that run this state, so speak up! You have the only voice our politicians will listen to - tourist dollars. I am also amazed that scuba equipment manufacturers and dive shops have not allied to stop diver discrimination on State properties, because each area closed to diving ultimately means a loss in sales, and when the best sites are closed, people sure don't need dive equipment.
Letter from the State Underwater Archaeologist Roger C. Smith, PHD
March 12, 1998
Dear Matt,
It has been some time since we corresponded. I trust that you are continuing to explore Florida's historic and archaeological sites. From your web page on the Internet, I see that you are promoting information about the state's historical resources, including those in state parks and on publicly owned uplands and bottomlands.
In order to assist you in providing updated information regarding historical and archaeological resources, I am enclosing the following materials.
1. A copy of Chapter 267 of the Florida Statutes regarding Historical Resources.
2. Information on the use of metal detectors in state parks.
3. A brief article about collecting artifacts on public lands.
4. A brochure about the state's new policy on reporting isolated finds from Florida's rivers.
I trust that the enclosed materials will help you to clarify current regulations and procedures concerning Florida's cultural resources that apply to residents and visitors alike.
Thank you for your interest and concern in preserving Florida's unique heritage.
Sincerely,
Signed
Roger C. Smith PHD
State Underwater Archaeologist
Part of the materials Roger sent me was titled "Restrictive use of Metal Detectors in Parks," in which it is stated: "metal detectors may be used to recover personal items that are specifically identified by their owner as being lost in a specific area of the park (italics mine). "Chapter XV states: Use of metal detectors, magnetometers, or other metal detecting devices is prohibited on all state park managed lands including sovereign submerged lands under lease by state parks except for the following: (a) coastal parks, in a zone between the water lane and toe of the dune, as determined by the park manager, except for archaeological sites . . ., (b) archaeological projects . . . , (c) . . . , the recovery of lost personal items."
It does make one wonder how you're supposed to identify where you lost something that's lost. I thought the definition of lost was "I don't know where it is."
My proposed changes to the metal detector & artifact diving laws contained in FS 267:
1. Instead of the state dictating that all areas are off limits except those areas the state allows for supervised collection I propose that --
All state lands: underwater, upland, and lowland, be open to recreational artifact collection by any means, including scuba diving and metal detecting, unless buoyed, roped, and marked by the state archaeologist as off limits to artifact collection for the purpose of preserving a designated historical site. In no instance shall a buoyed, roped, or marked exclusion area be larger than 600 feet (200 yards) in any direction from a site's perimeter as measured from the center of the site (the intent of this provision is to preserve historic sites without infringing on the public right to the use of state lands).
Anyone found collecting artifacts in any area buoyed, roped, or otherwise marked by the state as off limits to collection shall be in violation of FS 267.
At least the above would be enforceable, the rules would be clear to the collector and the enforcement agencies, and it would be fair.
Make your views felt!
Ask for your free copy of the March 12, 1998 underwater archaeologist Roger C. Smith to Matt Mattson treasure rules package at: secretary@mail.dos.state.fl.us! It wouldn't hurt to remind them you also want all state parks open to divers and you'll vote accordingly with your ballot or your dollars!
The Governor needs to hear from a couple of million divers on this subject!
Governor Jeb Bush, The Capitol, Tallahassee, Fl., 32399-0001,
Email link at: fl_governor@eog.state.fl.us, use it to voice your concerns on diving restrictions in the State of Florida! The Governor & others need to know you care. Keep up the pressure, right now the state is buying up property and looking at closing the upper Weeki Wachee River by denying access to boaters (you have to use a boat to transport your equipment since they closed upper river roads)! The Chassahowitzka River will be next.
Write! Call! Help!
Artifacts
Artifacts are a touchy and often bewildering subject here in Florida, where it seems every other scuba shop has an endless array of spearheads and pottery prominently on display, or offer routine "artifact dive trips," while the state's historical division threatens to prosecute anyone so much as looking at whatever it is they define as an artifact. So far as I can tell, the definition of artifact or junk seems to be connected with monetary value. I find it strange, that in a state where miles of land are bulldozed, paved or platted for housing each and every day, the state would direct resources towards the prosecution of a citizen picking up an arrowhead -- but they do. The federal government passed laws to prevent the looting of Indian graves (which I support) but now seems to take the narrow view that any artifact in your possession must mean you've looted a grave somewhere, so they can take your car, search your house, break you financially (which I don't support), and put you in jail on felony charges. One has to wonder where it will all end. You should be aware, that the archaeological community, in general, does not view the public as being responsible enough to report finds, and, in an us and them mentality, have painted collectors as thieves! Speaking in doublespeak, about being in a "race" with treasure hunters to find the "best" finds before they are "destroyed" by "looting," and about how the publics property must be "protected," the archaeological community convinced the Florida legislators that something must be done, so, in this air of archaeological paranoia, Florida enacted a bureaucratic law that even bans metal detecting on state lands. Since Florida claims all submerged lands, and everything between the sea and high tide line as its own (another bureaucratic law), this law was a coup for the archaeologist, effectively making anyone picking up anything a criminal, the deciding issue being selective enforcement (the founding fathers just rolled over again).
If you think the above has nothing to do with you, think again, because Florida is actively buying property around springs and rivers in the interests of "protection," and one of the first things that always goes up after a state purchase is the don't sign: don't trespass; don't camp; don't fish; don't hunt; don't dive. We are losing our best and our traditional diving sites to the bureaucrats, and for the most part, without a whimper. It never ceases to amaze me that the day before the State takes over a spring site, people are swimming, diving, hanging on rope swings, and camping around the spring as they have traditionally done since time immemorial, and the day after, none of these activities are allowed because the State can't manage them. You can make a difference by writing a letter of complaint to the Florida Governor, at: Governor Jeb Bush, Office of the Governor; The Capitol; Tallahassee, Fl 32399 - 0001, or contact him direct, email to: fl_governor@eog.state.fl.us and voice your opinion on the matter. You do count, because it is your tourist dollars that run this state, so speak up! You have the only voice our politicians will listen to - tourist dollars. I am also amazed that scuba equipment manufacturers and dive shops have not allied to stop diver discrimination on State properties, because each area closed to diving ultimately means a loss in sales, and when the best sites are closed, people sure don't need dive equipment.
Letter from the State Underwater Archaeologist Roger C. Smith, PHD
March 12, 1998
Dear Matt,
It has been some time since we corresponded. I trust that you are continuing to explore Florida's historic and archaeological sites. From your web page on the Internet, I see that you are promoting information about the state's historical resources, including those in state parks and on publicly owned uplands and bottomlands.
In order to assist you in providing updated information regarding historical and archaeological resources, I am enclosing the following materials.
1. A copy of Chapter 267 of the Florida Statutes regarding Historical Resources.
2. Information on the use of metal detectors in state parks.
3. A brief article about collecting artifacts on public lands.
4. A brochure about the state's new policy on reporting isolated finds from Florida's rivers.
I trust that the enclosed materials will help you to clarify current regulations and procedures concerning Florida's cultural resources that apply to residents and visitors alike.
Thank you for your interest and concern in preserving Florida's unique heritage.
Sincerely,
Signed
Roger C. Smith PHD
State Underwater Archaeologist
Part of the materials Roger sent me was titled "Restrictive use of Metal Detectors in Parks," in which it is stated: "metal detectors may be used to recover personal items that are specifically identified by their owner as being lost in a specific area of the park (italics mine). "Chapter XV states: Use of metal detectors, magnetometers, or other metal detecting devices is prohibited on all state park managed lands including sovereign submerged lands under lease by state parks except for the following: (a) coastal parks, in a zone between the water lane and toe of the dune, as determined by the park manager, except for archaeological sites . . ., (b) archaeological projects . . . , (c) . . . , the recovery of lost personal items."
It does make one wonder how you're supposed to identify where you lost something that's lost. I thought the definition of lost was "I don't know where it is."
My proposed changes to the metal detector & artifact diving laws contained in FS 267:
1. Instead of the state dictating that all areas are off limits except those areas the state allows for supervised collection I propose that --
All state lands: underwater, upland, and lowland, be open to recreational artifact collection by any means, including scuba diving and metal detecting, unless buoyed, roped, and marked by the state archaeologist as off limits to artifact collection for the purpose of preserving a designated historical site. In no instance shall a buoyed, roped, or marked exclusion area be larger than 600 feet (200 yards) in any direction from a site's perimeter as measured from the center of the site (the intent of this provision is to preserve historic sites without infringing on the public right to the use of state lands).
Anyone found collecting artifacts in any area buoyed, roped, or otherwise marked by the state as off limits to collection shall be in violation of FS 267.
At least the above would be enforceable, the rules would be clear to the collector and the enforcement agencies, and it would be fair.
Make your views felt!
Ask for your free copy of the March 12, 1998 underwater archaeologist Roger C. Smith to Matt Mattson treasure rules package at: secretary@mail.dos.state.fl.us! It wouldn't hurt to remind them you also want all state parks open to divers and you'll vote accordingly with your ballot or your dollars!
The Governor needs to hear from a couple of million divers on this subject!
Governor Jeb Bush, The Capitol, Tallahassee, Fl., 32399-0001,
Email link at: fl_governor@eog.state.fl.us, use it to voice your concerns on diving restrictions in the State of Florida! The Governor & others need to know you care. Keep up the pressure, right now the state is buying up property and looking at closing the upper Weeki Wachee River by denying access to boaters (you have to use a boat to transport your equipment since they closed upper river roads)! The Chassahowitzka River will be next.
Write! Call! Help!
- #11
Thread Owner
Yea Newnan I never new how ridiculous the government has gotten. I never new all these laws were in affect for treasure hunters.. Saltwater fishing regulations are a mess too. You have to be a biologist to figure some of them out. I more or less gave up saltwater fishing cause of the regs. I emailed the park guys last week. I don't see why divers get charged extra? Fishermen, hikers, boaters, kayaks, snorkelers, swimmers, fly fishermen, etc, don't get charged extra. Why do divers? I don't get it. I haven't got an aswer yet.
