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HMS Sussex

Physics guy

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I added this video to Red-Coat’s Aug 10 thread in Treasure In The News about the Sussex but thought if I also posted it here it would get some more views. Thanks Red-Coat for finding this news story.
I have sailed around Gib at that time and as far as I remember part of the gold was recovered and flown out in the dark of the night.
The Gibraltar/La Linea border is still a frontline of an undeclared Cold War between Spain and Gibraltar. So nothing gets done there which could endanger the century old cease fire. At least not officially. Bellow the waterline (and the officialdom) a lot happens without anything appearing in the public realm.
 
I have sailed around Gib at that time and as far as I remember part of the gold was recovered and flown out in the dark of the night.
The Gibraltar/La Linea border is still a frontline of an undeclared Cold War between Spain and Gibraltar. So nothing gets done there which could endanger the century old cease fire. At least not officially. Bellow the waterline (and the officialdom) a lot happens without anything appearing in the public realm.
The waters around Gib are sort of a battlefield bewteen drug traffickers on speedboats, Gibraltarian authorities and the Spanish Guardia Civil. The land border controls have been recently abolished, but I wouldn't risk a search in the contested waters around the Rock. It doesn't help either that the Gibraltarians are constantly reclaiming land with debris, potentially endangering wrecks close to shore. I know all this because I briefly worked there in the banking industry, as a translator.

As for the HMS Sussex, wasn't that a ruse by Odyssey to get away with the gold of the Mercedes?
 
I have sailed around Gib at that time and as far as I remember part of the gold was recovered and flown out in the dark of the night.
The Gibraltar/La Linea border is still a frontline of an undeclared Cold War between Spain and Gibraltar. So nothing gets done there which could endanger the century old cease fire. At least not officially. Bellow the waterline (and the officialdom) a lot happens without anything appearing in the public realm.
In 2007 Odyssey recovered 17 tons of mostly silver coins from the Black Swan/N. S. de las Mercedes and flew it from Gibraltar to Florida. Then they issued a press release. So I think that’s what you were thinking of. I haven’t heard of any recovery from the Sussex.
 
The waters around Gib are sort of a battlefield bewteen drug traffickers on speedboats, Gibraltarian authorities and the Spanish Guardia Civil. The land border controls have been recently abolished, but I wouldn't risk a search in the contested waters around the Rock. It doesn't help either that the Gibraltarians are constantly reclaiming land with debris, potentially endangering wrecks close to shore. I know all this because I briefly worked there in the banking industry, as a translator.

As for the HMS Sussex, wasn't that a ruse by Odyssey to get away with the gold of the Mercedes?
It was the Merchant Royal that was rumored to be the Black Swan.
 
In 2007 Odyssey recovered 17 tons of mostly silver coins from the Black Swan/N. S. de las Mercedes and flew it from Gibraltar to Florida. Then they issued a press release. So I think that’s what you were thinking of. I haven’t heard of any recovery from the Sussex.
Yes you are probably right. Its ages ago so my memory is quite incomplete. I do remember that there was a constant battle and people from the shore throwing stones at us. Coast guard chasing smuggler speedboats around the anchorage. Pretty wild place. Its more civilized now. Marina in La Linea and everything posh and glimmer in Gib.
 
I have sailed around Gib at that time and as far as I remember part of the gold was recovered and flown out in the dark of the night.
The Gibraltar/La Linea border is still a frontline of an undeclared Cold War between Spain and Gibraltar. So nothing gets done there which could endanger the century old cease fire. At least not officially. Bellow the waterline (and the officialdom) a lot happens without anything appearing in the public realm.

The waters around Gib are sort of a battlefield bewteen drug traffickers on speedboats, Gibraltarian authorities and the Spanish Guardia Civil. The land border controls have been recently abolished, but I wouldn't risk a search in the contested waters around the Rock. It doesn't help either that the Gibraltarians are constantly reclaiming land with debris, potentially endangering wrecks close to shore. I know all this because I briefly worked there in the banking industry, as a translator.

As for the HMS Sussex, wasn't that a ruse by Odyssey to get away with the gold of the Mercedes?

In 2007 Odyssey recovered 17 tons of mostly silver coins from the Black Swan/N. S. de las Mercedes and flew it from Gibraltar to Florida. Then they issued a press release. So I think that’s what you were thinking of. I haven’t heard of any recovery from the Sussex.

See my original post here, referenced by @Physics guy:


Odyssey were forced to return an estimated £314 million worth of silver and gold coins to Spain, plus other artefacts covertly recovered as part of the Black Swan Project after it was proven in court that the items had come from Spanish frigate Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes. The wreck was off the coast of Portugal. Odyssey was also ordered to pay Spain $1 million for "bad faith and abusive litigation.”
 
One of the worst precedences was committed by Odyssey Marine when they allowed Spain to take back all the 17 tons of coins. At the time of losing the court case I wrote a letter to both Greg Stemm and Melinda MacConnel to take all the coins and dump them back in the ocean on the location where they recovered them. Just spread them around a little and apologize to Spain and just say sorry but we put them back. That's what happens when you get amateurs in this industry causing undue precedence.
 
One of the worst precedences was committed by Odyssey Marine when they allowed Spain to take back all the 17 tons of coins. At the time of losing the court case I wrote a letter to both Greg Stemm and Melinda MacConnel to take all the coins and dump them back in the ocean on the location where they recovered them. Just spread them around a little and apologize to Spain and just say sorry but we put them back. That's what happens when you get amateurs in this industry causing undue precedence.

They didn’t have much choice, since the treasure was seized after they landed it in the US and Spain took legal action. The Lower federal Courts in Tampa and the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta ruled in favour of Spain, and the U.S. Supreme Court denied Odyssey's final appeal in 2012.

Among other things, the courts upheld that the treasure belonged to Spain because allowing Odyssey to keep it “would be inconsistent with Spain's rights under the 1902 Treaty of Friendship and General Relations between the United States of America and Spain."

Article X of the treaty, which is still in force, states that: “In all cases of shipwrecks, damages at sea... each party shall afford to the vessels of the other, whether belonging to the State or to individuals, the same assistance and protection and the same immunities which would have been granted to its own vessels in similar cases."

Although the agreement wasn’t originally intended to cover the situation of historical shipwrecks, the courts ruled that because the United States protects its own sunken military vessels from unauthorized salvage, it must grant the same immunity from salvage to Spanish vessels as part of the reciprocal nature of the treaty. The consequence is that a Spanish vessel cannot be legally considered “abandoned” unless Spain explicitly signs away its rights. The ship’s cargo is also legally regarded as an extension of the wreck itself, and has to be afforded the same protection.

Had the unauthorised salvage been conducted by a non-American company, the situation would likely have been no different. Although the American courts were very mindful of the 1902 treaty, most maritime countries respect the principle that a ship’s status is absolute under customary international law, such that sunken government vessels (warships and non-commercial state craft) retain sovereign immunity and ownership after sinking and remain the property of their flag state forever unless explicitly abandoned (notable non-respecting countries are Colombia, Peru, and China). If the treasure had been landed in a country respecting that principle, the outcome would likely have been the same (seizure and ultimate return to Spain).

For non-sovereign vessels, the UNESCO Convention on the Protection of Underwater Cultural Heritage would sometimes apply, but there are 110 countries who haven’t signed up to it… including the United States and the United Kingdom. Spain has signed up.
 
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Odyssey said they had it stored in a warehouse in th US. I believe that Odyssey must have had control of the coins in the US to conserve all the coins. Odyssey knew that they were recovering it without Spains permission. It can not be viewed with anything but shear incompetence on either GS or MM shoulders and now we have to live with the precedence set with this fiasco.
 
Odyssey had control of the coins from sometime in 2009 until Feb 24 2012 when Spain arrived in Florida with two C-130 cargo lanes. During that time Odyssey should have had the coins loaded on a ship ready at a minutes notice to dump them back on the site of recovery. Some people know how to raise money for treasure hunting and some know how to avoid calamities.
 
Odyssey said they had it stored in a warehouse in th US. I believe that Odyssey must have had control of the coins in the US to conserve all the coins. Odyssey knew that they were recovering it without Spains permission. It can not be viewed with anything but shear incompetence on either GS or MM shoulders and now we have to live with the precedence set with this fiasco.

Odyssey had control of the coins from sometime in 2009 until Feb 24 2012 when Spain arrived in Florida with two C-130 cargo lanes. During that time Odyssey should have had the coins loaded on a ship ready at a minutes notice to dump them back on the site of recovery. Some people know how to raise money for treasure hunting and some know how to avoid calamities.

That's not correct.

Odyssey air-freighted the coins into the US on 18 May 2007. They had already filed in rem on 9 April to try and establish constructive legal custody under US maritime law such that they could start selling the coins without challenge. They had reportedly told the judge that the coins had been recovered from an unidentified 17th Century merchant ship just outside the English Channel, about 40 miles off Lands' End.

Believing this to be false (as indeed it was) Spain contested the claim to ownership and the federal court ordered (in May 2007) that the coins be secured and held under federal arrest/custody of the US Marshals. They were held under federal court-supervised legal protection at a secure storage facility owned by the Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC) in Sarasota, Florida until the legal proceedings had run their course.

In January the following year, a US Federal Court in Tampa ordered Odyssey to disclose details of the wreck site, which was actually 180 miles off the coast of western Portugal, confirming Spain’s suspicions. Both parties were summoned to return to court in March when Spain presented evidence for the identity of the ship and reaffirmed that the wreck and its cargo belonged to them, as per the 1902 treaty. The court ultimately agreed, and the coins and other items were released to Spain directly by the federal court in 2012 rather than being handed over by Odyssey, who no longer had control of them.
 
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That's not correct.

Odyssey air-freighted the coins into the US on 18 May 2007. They had already filed in rem on 9 April to try and establish constructive legal custody under US maritime law such that they could start selling the coins without challenge. They had reportedly told the judge that the coins had been recovered from an unidentified 17th Century merchant ship just outside the English Channel, about 40 miles off Lands' End.

Believing this to be false (as indeed it was) Spain contested the claim to ownership and the federal court ordered (in May 2007) that the coins be secured and held under federal arrest/custody of the US Marshals. They were held under federal court-supervised legal protection at a secure storage facility owned by the Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC) in Sarasota, Florida until the legal proceedings had run their course.

In January the following year, a US Federal Court in Tampa ordered Odyssey to disclose details of the wreck site, which was actually 180 miles off the coast of western Portugal, confirming Spain’s suspicions. Both parties were summoned to return to court in March when Spain presented evidence for the identity of the ship and reaffirmed that the wreck and its cargo belonged to them, as per the 1902 treaty. The court ultimately agreed, and the coins and other items were released to Spain directly by the federal court in 2012 rather than being handed over by Odyssey, who no longer had control of them.
That’s how I recall it and I was following it pretty closely: the Court had custody of the treasure, not Odyssey. Fortunately I sold my Odyssey stock right after they announced the recovery but before Spain filed their lawsuit three weeks later. Managed to get about a 2X return. Pure luck, not genius.
 
I was probably wrong saying that Odyssey had control of the coins from 2007 to 2012. Odyssey had control of the coins in May 2007 when they shipped them into the US. Odyssey knew that they had recovered the coins illegally without Spains approval. Knowing that they should have divided up the coins into at least 4 different batches and shipped them to at least 4 different countries.. Anybody in the treasure hunting business today that has all their recoveries in one location is just playing with fire. There is just too many vultures(Archies, Countries, Spain) out there that will try every means available to steal it back from you regardless if Spain stole it in the first place.
 
I was probably wrong saying that Odyssey had control of the coins from 2007 to 2012. Odyssey had control of the coins in May 2007 when they shipped them into the US. Odyssey knew that they had recovered the coins illegally without Spains approval. Knowing that they should have divided up the coins into at least 4 different batches and shipped them to at least 4 different countries.. Anybody in the treasure hunting business today that has all their recoveries in one location is just playing with fire. There is just too many vultures(Archies, Countries, Spain) out there that will try every means available to steal it back from you regardless if Spain stole it in the first place.
The law of gold always has been and will be that you own it if you can physically defend it. Its true value is much much higher than its market value so all kind of tricks are used to keep if of the streets. Morals, treaties and laws are just smokescreens and will selectively applied or ignored as needed by those in power.
 

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