How can we know if the clues to the LDM really came from the Dutchman?

[Steamboat]

There are a lot of clues to the LDM that supposedly came from the Dutchman. How do we really know that they did come from him? How do we know they were the truth?
For example, "From my mine I can see the military trail but from the trail you can not see my mine".

1. If they did come from him how do we know that he was telling the truth. I know death bed confessions are considered to be true but not necessarily so.
2. If the clues came from others, how do we know they didn't make up things to throw others off the trail.

I'll give an example. A few years ago I wanted to find a cave that had a lot of Indian pictures in it. I read about it on the internet and in books and one description said "If you follow the trail when it turns north you have gone too far." The first time I went I accepted the "North" statement as true and stopped when the trail turned North. The second time I went I followed the trail when it turned North, then it turned West and South and I found the cave.

The writer of the "North" instructions clearly didn't want anyone to find the cave. Could the clues to the LDM be the same?

 

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[azdave35]

There are a lot of clues to the LDM that supposedly came from the Dutchman. How do we really know that they did come from him? How do we know they were the truth?
For example, "From my mine I can see the military trail but from the trail you can not see my mine".

1. If they did come from him how do we know that he was telling the truth. I know death bed confessions are considered to be true but not necessarily so.
2. If the clues came from others, how do we know they didn't make up things to throw others off the trail.

I'll give an example. A few years ago I wanted to find a cave that had a lot of Indian pictures in it. I read about it on the internet and in books and one description said "If you follow the trail when it turns north you have gone too far." The first time I went I accepted the "North" statement as true and stopped when the trail turned North. The second time I went I followed the trail when it turned North, then it turned West and South and I found the cave.

The writer of the "North" instructions clearly didn't want anyone to find the cave. Could the clues to the LDM be the same?

the truth is that nobody really knows what waltz said...or if he even said anything at all

 

[Hinterlander]

And therein lies the problem. Since the Dutchman didn't write a book or will or anything else, every clue that is out there comes secondhand. Regardless of whether it's from the Thomas camp or the Holmes camp, everything is secondhand and suspect. Any clues that may have come from Waltz to those folks are subject to the telephone game, whether intentional or not. I think that the only thing that you can depend on is that there is indeed a mine, and that is based on the actions of those involved immediately after Waltz's death.

 

[JohnWhite]

And therein lies the problem. Since the Dutchman didn't write a book or will or anything else, every clue that is out there comes secondhand. Regardless of whether it's from the Thomas camp or the Holmes camp, everything is secondhand and suspect. Any clues that may have come from Waltz to those folks are subject to the telephone game, whether intentional or not. I think that the only thing that you can depend on is that there is indeed a mine, and that is based on the actions of those involved immediately after Waltz's death.

I am no J.W. Hinterlander...And I am not even sure IF any of my little play areas are as sought after as the LDM...Well, IF it were a paragon diamond that I gave away in Reno many years ago...Maybe...Just maybe said location may be sought after by some...And as far as the Pt bearing ore that I too gave away many years ago...There just may be those who have been searching for the location said ore came from as well...

I can really care less IF I ever return to either of my little playgrounds...Heck...Who knowsMaybe there is only one little coyote hole that both the Pt and diamond came from...Who is to sayAs I have mentioned...There are some secrets that I will take to my grave...As did J.W. hehehe...Maybe in the future I may become as famous as the Dutchman...But I will not hold my breath...

Ed T

 

[metrotec]

A man dies in a room of a bakery,with some gold in a box under his bed. NOW-GUYS AND GALS!!!!!! If you found me in the bed of my 99' F-250, dead, with $300,000 in gold parked in the Saloon parking lot at Apache Junction, you would say ,"he must've found the lost Dutchman Mine!!!!"
BS....if I had that much gold, and had a rich gold mine, I would be in a fine home with a pool, 2 maids and a new F-250.
Waltz was a guard for ---, and was paid a fee for his sworn word to keep a secret. He died of old age, vs being "tied to a post at low tide." There is your clue. Take your right hand and make a slashing across your stomach..from left to right. NOW, Go Fish!!

 

[Idahodutch]

A man dies in a room of a bakery,with some gold in a box under his bed. NOW-GUYS AND GALS!!!!!! If you found me in the bed of my 99' F-250, dead, with $300,000 in gold parked in the Saloon parking lot at Apache Junction, you would say ,"he must've found the lost Dutchman Mine!!!!"
BS....if I had that much gold, and had a rich gold mine, I would be in a fine home with a pool, 2 maids and a new F-250.
Waltz was a guard for ---, and was paid a fee for his sworn word to keep a secret. He died of old age, vs being "tied to a post at low tide." There is your clue. Take your right hand and make a slashing across your stomach..from left to right. NOW, Go Fish!!

I take it that you did not find the mine then?
Idahodutch

 

[markmar]

There are a lot of clues to the LDM that supposedly came from the Dutchman. How do we really know that they did come from him? How do we know they were the truth?
For example, "From my mine I can see the military trail but from the trail you can not see my mine".

1. If they did come from him how do we know that he was telling the truth. I know death bed confessions are considered to be true but not necessarily so.
2. If the clues came from others, how do we know they didn't make up things to throw others off the trail.

I'll give an example. A few years ago I wanted to find a cave that had a lot of Indian pictures in it. I read about it on the internet and in books and one description said "If you follow the trail when it turns north you have gone too far." The first time I went I accepted the "North" statement as true and stopped when the trail turned North. The second time I went I followed the trail when it turned North, then it turned West and South and I found the cave.

The writer of the "North" instructions clearly didn't want anyone to find the cave. Could the clues to the LDM be the same?

From my research, I found the clues which Waltz told to Julia and Holmes are true. Now, the other clues are a mix of quotes taken from books, and few of them are for a treasure cave which has not any relation with the LDM.
Even the true LDM clues are for two different mines worked by Waltz, from the same mountainside. These mines are the inclined shaft ( Mina del Sombrero ) and the residual placer ( gold vein outcrop ) across the gulch from the two room house ruin. And also, the clue given by Waltz to Holmes that rises a lot of confusion about a rock or rocks which resemble/s a man or a man's head standing in the brush, was just what Waltz saw with his own capability or imagination to receive a shape of a structure in the fields, perception which can differ from person to person, and shouldn't be taken as a principal clue at the beginning of a research.
I post two aerial images of the two LDM mines. One is for the inclined shaft ( yellow rectangle ) which is located between the second and third big like a barrel stones markings to the west ( see John Deer story ) and beside the three pines in line ( see Julia's map ) marked in the green rectangle.
The other image is for the LDM residual placer ( see Dr. Thorne story ) marked with yellow circle, which is across the gulch from the two room house ruin ( blue square ).
I have posted in the past about the same images, but I post them again for the newcomers and for those who dind't pay so much attention for their own reasons.

View attachment 1870023 View attachment 1870024

Have a nice weekend

 

[azdave35]

From my research, I found the clues which Waltz told to Julia and Holmes are true. Now, the other clues are a mix of quotes taken from books, and few of them are for a treasure cave which has not any relation with the LDM.
Even the true LDM clues are for two different mines worked by Waltz, from the same mountainside. These mines are the inclined shaft ( Mina del Sombrero ) and the residual placer ( gold vein outcrop ) across the gulch from the two room house ruin. And also, the clue given by Waltz to Holmes that rises a lot of confusion about a rock or rocks which resemble/s a man or a man's head standing in the brush, was just what Waltz saw with his own capability or imagination to receive a shape of a structure in the fields, perception which can differ from person to person, and shouldn't be taken as a principal clue at the beginning of a research.
I post two aerial images of the two LDM mines. One is for the inclined shaft ( yellow rectangle ) which is located between the second and third big like a barrel stones markings to the west ( see John Deer story ) and beside the three pines in line ( see Julia's map ) marked in the green rectangle.
The other image is for the LDM residual placer ( see Dr. Thorne story ) marked with yellow circle, which is across the gulch from the two room house ruin ( blue square ).
I have posted in the past the about the same images, but I post them again for the newcomers and for those who dind't pay so much attention for their own reasons.

View attachment 1870023 View attachment 1870024

Have a nice weekend

marius..i agree that the only real clues out there are the ones that waltz passed to either holmes or julia or both....the holmes clues were passed to brownie and eventually to clay....julia's clues were passed to the petrash's...and through a couple other people to a man that has them now....what we don't know is how much the clues were altered while handed down through a few generations

 

[releventchair]

"From my mine I can see the military trail but from the trail you can not see my mine".

To see the trail means having your eyes not blocked. Yet a hole you're standing in front off could be blocked from the trail/opposite end of sightline.
Would not take much more of a rise than a heads/eyes height to block a view. Or one could stand on a rock and gain inches enough to see over something.
What's in front of the rock would not be seen from the opposite end of the sightline if anything of solid substance existed there.

Saying mine can't be seen from the trail does not say what can be seen from the trail. Could a hat be seen on a six foot tall person standing in front of the mine?

I know , I know. Rampant speculation. But it's one of the clues that don't bug me as much as others...

 

[markmar]

"From my mine I can see the military trail but from the trail you can not see my mine".

To see the trail means having your eyes not blocked. Yet a hole you're standing in front off could be blocked from the trail/opposite end of sightline.
Would not take much more of a rise than a heads/eyes height to block a view. Or one could stand on a rock and gain inches enough to see over something.
What's in front of the rock would not be seen from the opposite end of the sightline if anything of solid substance existed there.

Saying mine can't be seen from the trail does not say what can be seen from the trail. Could a hat be seen on a six foot tall person standing in front of the mine?

I know , I know. Rampant speculation. But it's one of the clues that don't bug me as much as others...

You are right in the most of your " rampant speculation ". IMO, someone could see the mine from the Military Trail, if he knew where to look, but this before Waltz planted a juniper and hid his mine from the only possible direction ( see the juniper below the mine from the above image with the mine across the ruin ). That juniper blocks the only possible way to see the mine's spot, if it even could be seen in another circumstance. By now , the only way to see the mine , is only to walk by or using an aerial image.
So, this clue was real and true before Waltz to plant the Juniper, but someone can " see " it only if he knows where to look.

 

[markmar]

marius..i agree that the only real clues out there are the ones that waltz passed to either holmes or julia or both....the holmes clues were passed to brownie and eventually to clay....julia's clues were passed to the petrash's...and through a couple other people to a man that has them now....what we don't know is how much the clues were altered while handed down through a few generations

Dave, IMO all the clues given by Waltz to Holmes and Julia were true, but they were not so much understandable to the people who didn't venture to enter the Superstitions. Another disadvantage in following the clues or in the descriptions, was that there were not names given yet for the most mountains in the range and they should follow a " puzzle " of details which seemed more like a game than rather an organized research.
The " German " clues given by Waltz to Julia, represent the same route given by Waltz to Holmes, just using different landmarks and details. The only altered German clue that was responsible to sending a lot of good people in the wrong place, was the mistranslation of the clue " Above from my mine/cache in the sadle, you can see far to the south a mountain with a hole in it ", which in reality says " Above from my mine/cache in the sadle ( the same sadle from the Holmes route ),you can see far to the south through a hole in the mountain ". Much different, eh?
There are two clues which resemble the same " image " ,and if someone would follow them, they would lead exactly to the LDM. These clues were given by Waltz to Julia and Reinhard the same time he drew the " doodle " ( gun sight image ) for them. I posted these two clues few years ago, but seems they were taken as " lightweigh " for the level of the debates between the old skilled LDM hunters.
The most if not all the LDM clues used in modern books are at some point altered, by changing some directions , cuting them shorter or mixing them to the point that if you put them in the field, contradict each other or don't make any sense.

 

[azdave35]

Dave, IMO all the clues given by Waltz to Holmes and Julia were true, but they were not so much understandable to the people who didn't venture to enter the Superstitions. Another disadvantage in following the clues or in the descriptions, was that there were not names given yet for the most mountains in the range and they should follow a " puzzle " of details which seemed more like a game than rather an organized research.
The " German " clues given by Waltz to Julia, represent the same route given by Waltz to Holmes, just using different landmarks and details. The only altered German clue that was responsible to sending a lot of good people in the wrong place, was the mistranslation of the clue " Above from my mine/cache in the sadle, you can see far to the south a mountain with a hole in it ", which in reality says " Above from my mine/cache in the sadle ( the same sadle from the Holmes route ),you can see far to the south through a hole in the mountain ". Much different, eh?
There are two clues which resemble the same " image " ,and if someone would follow them, they would lead exactly to the LDM. These clues were given by Waltz to Julia and Reinhard the same time he drew the " doodle " ( gun sight image ) for them. I posted these two clues few years ago, but seems they were taken as " lightweigh " for the level of the debates between the old skilled LDM hunters.
The most if not all the LDM clues used in modern books are at some point altered, by changing some directions , cuting them shorter or mixing them to the point that if you put them in the field, contradict each other or don't make any sense.

marius...i think the bottom line is none of those clues have led anyone to anything (not even to the people that received them first hand)...there was only one clue that brownie looked for...and that is the rock that looked like a man standing...and even brownie feared that it had been destroyed by another hunter...if anyone is going to find that mine it wont be from following the thousands of clues out there (most of them are bogus anyway)...it will be dumb luck...and if you believe the clue waltz supposedly said about sealing the mine with Lincoln logs and covering them with dirt....then i doubt if it will ever be found

 

[markmar]

marius...i think the bottom line is none of those clues have led anyone to anything (not even to the people that received them first hand)...there was only one clue that brownie looked for...and that is the rock that looked like a man standing...and even brownie feared that it had been destroyed by another hunter...if anyone is going to find that mine it wont be from following the thousands of clues out there (most of them are bogus anyway)...it will be dumb luck...and if you believe the clue waltz supposedly said about sealing the mine with Lincoln logs and covering them with dirt....then i doubt if it will ever be found

The mine itself would be impossible to find if don't know the exact location. Dumb luck would be for someone else to find the roofless two room house ruin and after to follow the clues in regards to find the mine.
Everything is possible and never say " never ".

 

[Oroblanco]

Markmar wrote

So, this clue was real and true before Waltz to plant the Juniper, but someone can " see " it only if he knows where to look.

Can you tell me where this clue of planting a Juniper originates? Thanks in advance,

 

[markmar]

Markmar wrote


Can you tell me where this clue of planting a Juniper originates? Thanks in advance,

It was told by Waltz to Julia and Reinhard and I believe was " leaked out " by Herman.

 

[azdave35]

It was told by Waltz to Julia and Reinhard and I believe was " leaked out " by Herman.

are you sure about that marius?...before herman died he told what he knew about waltz to one man...he is still alive and he never said anything about a juniper tree

 

[markmar]

are you sure about that marius?...before herman died he told what he knew about waltz to one man...he is still alive and he never said anything about a juniper tree

Dave, this is a clue which only someone who was at the mine should knows about. So, for sure was told by Waltz to Julia or Rhiney and they told them to others. Could been Jim Bark, Elly or Bicknell. Who knows for certain?
These clues were kept secret the first years until the people who knew them failed to find the mine, and after told them one by one in different camp parties, to friends, partners or for money.
Nevertheless, this clue ( #7 from the list ) is written in this article at Dutchman's Lost Mine
You can take it as fake, but from the aerial image, seems true.

 

[dredgernaut]

that juniper probably burned down. depending where your looking, but most trees did not fare well after the fires.. just saying..

 

[markmar]

that juniper probably burned down. depending where your looking, but most trees did not fare well after the fires.. just saying..

Seems it's still " alive "

 

[dredgernaut]

I am not arguing with you. but,, do you realize how many junipers are out there, or that have died off, or burnt down over that last 100 plus years. pretty tough for trees to grow in the desert . Just sayin. .well I am glad you found the correct one..