How much treasure is actually at sea?

[wormhole]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tec...e-of-the-worlds-sunken-treasure?click=pm_news

 

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[Alexandre]

"The street value of shipwrecks is minimal. Generally it's a losing proposition, except in a few cases, because it costs more to find them, work them, and deal with what you find. An average mission in deep water can run into the millions, and that's just to find it. For every dollar you spend looking and finding, you'll spend about $10 excavating and treating what you've found [to offset] chemical changes that happen underwater."


hear, hear

 

[saltydog1733]

For every dollar you spend looking and finding, you'll spend about $10 excavating and treating what you've found [to offset] chemical changes that happen underwater."

This just drives home the idea that marine archaeology and shipwreck salvage should not be funded by taxpayers dollars.

 

[Alexandre]

For every dollar you spend looking and finding, you'll spend about $10 excavating and treating what you've found [to offset] chemical changes that happen underwater."

This just drives home the idea that marine archaeology and shipwreck salvage should not be funded by taxpayers dollars.

Look at it from this point of view:

In Europe, we have a lot of Science Programs. The European Union decides that it goind to spend a billion of taxpayers euros in Science.

It opens a call for projects.

All that bilion is going to be spent, because every agency in Europe is vying for those resources, be they a medical university looking for a treatment to cancer, be it a sociological institute trying to put together an anthropological research within the Inuit people.

So, what should I do? Be still, do nothing, afraid of spending my and my neighbours euros in maritime archaeology - and having it all spent on the Inuits? What would you do?

And we do have private funding too - our "investors" just do not expect to make any money out of their giving away (only a tax deduction). As Oceanscience said elsewhere, they are buying the dream...

 

[Alexandre]

That statement was given by James Delgado, director of the Maritime Heritage Program. Sounds bias and not favoring commercial interests.

It might be biased but it is true! I bet 99% of the time, all treasure hinting ventures are run at investor's loss (unless, of course, you consider selling them the "dream" to be an asset for him

 

[Crow]

Hello Alexandre

What is the EU requirements for funding an Martime archaeological project?

Crow

 

[Alexandre]

Hello Alexandre

What is the EU requirements for funding an Martime archaeological project?

Crow

Excellency of both project and researcher's cv's.

Here's a call:


http://cordis.europa.eu/fp7/understand_en.html

 

[Au_Dreamers]

It might be biased but it is true! I bet 99% of the time, all treasure hinting ventures are run at investor's loss (unless, of course, you consider selling them the "dream" to be an asset for him

WOW, is that a professionaly researched opinion or you just talking c r a p?

I guess they only teach proper research after the doctorial?

 

[Jones Indiana]

In order to have a more objective view point you would need a study done by a 3rd party.

In my opinion. You need to follow the money........................ to find the answer.

Indy

 

[Alexandre]

I guess they only teach proper research after the doctorial?

I have been around and my eyes and ears are always open.

Look at the 1715 fleet, all those subcontractors spending money and not digging any real gold and silver out of those worked out sites.

Or the Atocha - all those years of milking investors out of their money, and all those legal fees and ammends and the money made on the treasure all long gone.

Or the Arqueonautas venture, which has plundered Cape Verde, Mozambique and is now turning to Indonesia, who discovered several wrecks and a handful of silver coins and an astrolabe but with no real treasure to show;

Or the Central America fiasco - a lovely book and then Tommy G. Thompson was on the run, being persecuted by defrauded investors

(please, read this: http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2006/0619/158_print.html)

Or look at Odyssey, I bet they are in the red up to their ears.




Anyhow, I am waiting for your examples of a treasure hunting venture that turned into a profit, after all expenses were accounted for.

Just name three and support your claims with facts and numbers. I dare you.

 

[Jones Indiana]

RMS Titanic Inc. Might be one. Would need to do the research.

Where dealing just with shipwrecks?

Indy

 

[Alexandre]

RMS Titanic Inc. Might be one. Would need to do the research.

Where dealing just with shipwrecks?

Indy

That's what the forum says..

Anyhow, the real treasure hunting pros know that the money is in the looking, not in the finding or selling..

 

[Jones Indiana]

HMS Endinburgh

Keith Jessop / Jessop Marine Ltd. Found the ship after 10 days. Recovery $100 million in gold bars.

Most do take their time looking..............but with the Edinburgh it was full out Capitalism.

Can both the commercial and science interests both be served? Must they depart company? Can they work together?




Indy

 

[Oceanscience]

The root of treasure hunting lies in psychology.
It is a root from the same tree as gambling and buying lottery tickets.

To a person who buys a lottery ticket every week, it is useless to point out what the mathematical chances are for him to be a winner.

Treasure hunting is much more interactive. It demands skills and hard work from the executors.
The reward, finding the treasure, or a lead, is proportional to the amount of work invested in it.

The financier wants to buy the same reward without doing the hard work.

Speculating on the stock market is another root of the same tree.

The morale of the story? Is gambling profitable?

Yes it is. For the house.

Homework: Define the house in treasure hunting.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

I guess they only teach proper research after the doctorial?

I have been around and my eyes and ears are always open.

Which is NOT proper research. Reading press clippings and reading forums isn't the same.

Look at the 1715 fleet, all those subcontractors spending money and not digging any real gold and silver out of those worked out sites.

Or the Atocha - all those years of milking investors out of their money, and all those legal fees and ammends and the money made on the treasure all long gone.

"milking"? Again bias opinion

Or the Arqueonautas venture, which has plundered Cape Verde, Mozambique and is now turning to Indonesia, who discovered several wrecks and a handful of silver coins and an astrolabe but with no real treasure to show;

Or the Central America fiasco - a lovely book and then Tommy G. Thompson was on the run, being persecuted by defrauded investors

(please, read this: http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2006/0619/158_print.html)

Or look at Odyssey, I bet they are in the red up to their ears.

So I guess then all these pros are just like archeologists, spending a bunch of money to fulfill their hobbies regardless of financial outcome?

Anyhow, I am waiting for your examples of a treasure hunting venture that turned into a profit, after all expenses were accounted for.

Just name three and support your claims with facts and numbers. I dare you.

It wasn't my claim to begin with, it was yours. So show me 99% of treasure hunting operations failing financially with facts and numbers, since you're the so called research professional. I dare you.

I would have to ask permission to publicly share that detailed information. On a year to year basis there are 1715 salvors that treasure found is greater than expenses even on those "worked out" sites. I honestly don't believe you really know what happens here year after year after year. Not everything is big press releases or on forums.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

The root of treasure hunting lies in psychology.
It is a root from the same tree as gambling and buying lottery tickets.

Yes it is. For the house.

Homework: Define the house in treasure hunting.

This isn't too accurate. Maybe for some but not for all.

Is the money attractive, like a lottery? Sure it has it's draw but any professional worth their salt knows that it can be a long, long, long term process that might not be "financially rewarding".

Honestly for some it's the romance, adventure and passion of history. The solving of a puzzle(s).

One Friday night while drinking a little rum at a local watering hole the lottery results came on the television. The consensus among the 5 or so professional treasures hunters there was "that would be nice to hit, but if I hit it I'd still be doing the same thing, hunting for treasure"!

Maybe though with a bigger boat!

As I describe it to many people, like my father just last week. He was talking about his twice a week golf club. I told him for about the same amount of money one could go out and look for 1715 treasure. At the end of the day if you found no treasure you still had a nice day out on the water diving and looking for some treasure. There is a possibility that you could find a little, a pile, something unique/rare or nothing at all.

But with his golf or anyone taking a vacation to Disney or paying for any other hobby’s activity, at the end of the day there isn't someone asking you to pick a door prize that could be a little of your expenses back, more than your expenses back, a pile of money or nothing at all.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Take Bonnie Schubert for example. Her and her mom have spent years out on the water looking near Douglas Beach. Last year, they found a golden Pelican that is valued at between $800,000 and $1,000,000. They achieved about 7000 percent return on their total investment. That's one....I can keep going for days, but you only asked for 3 Alexandre.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Take Bonnie Schubert for example. Her and her mom have spent years out on the water looking near Douglas Beach. Last year, they found a golden Pelican that is valued at between $800,000 and $1,000,000. They achieved about 7000 percent return on their total investment. That's one....I can keep going for days, but you only asked for 3 Alexandre.

Yeah that one came to my mind also.

Gold Hound comes to mind - pick a year

Greg Bounds with the Bookmaker and the Royals come to mind

Greg Bounds on the Blue Water Rose comes to mind.

John Brandon - pick a year, pick a decade...

Bob Weller - pick a year, pick a decade

Mo - pick a year, pick a decade

Then there are many seasons with single big items or a few big items found by operations that don't get too much press.

Jewelry, gold bars, a few gold coins, a bunch of silver.

How did Bob Weller put it?

"Beginning in May 1960 when Kip Wagner’s “Real Eight” group first worked the 1715 “Urca de Lima” site about a mile north of the Fort Pierce inlet, a great quantity of coins, jewelry and artifacts have been recovered from the various ballast piles of the 1715 Spanish treasure fleet. By 1967 Kip and Mel Fisher’s group “Treasure Salvors” had recovered literally thousands of gold coins and well over a ton of silver coins. So, when it comes to the salvage community, it’s sort of “Oh Hum” whenever a few more gold or silver coins are recovered."emphasis mine

http://www.atocha1622.com/1715flee/bobwellerrings.htm

 

[piratediver]

The traveling WHYDAH tour and museum make millions per year and will continue to do so as long as people love pirates.



Another archaeologist talking common sense today on Sub-Arch:

OK all lets move on some thoughts on the topic:

Now that the epic battle between Odyssey and Spain is over where are we going from here? We need to all learn from the mistakes. Mistakes were made on both sides.

Odyssey for the American attitude that "finders keepers" will win on sovereign vessels, and Spain for not acting sooner when they knew something was up, enabling officials to be fired for in effect sleeping on the job and not acting sooner. Why is it that the American laws on arresting a wreck in Rem should apply all over the world...? Perhaps other countries like Spain should create competing legislation which archaeologists can use to arrest and protect wrecks?

Maritime archaeology is facing some major issues for the future. Finance as you all know is the major factor, and finance for archaeology is scarce. Treasure hunting is a failed approach which is not working unless you want to play the stock market game of smoke and mirrors. Governments on the other hand are going to be looking at recovering all the gold and silver for their economies, but lack the expertise in deep water or shallow. When they do recover artefact's they could put in museums for tourism or put it in the bank for collateral. Selling thousands of coins will only flood the market.

Perhaps the governments should hire archaeologists and pay for them to recover their past losses from wrecks, that way the wrecks can be worked on correctly by archaeological standards, and provides employment for archaeologists.

How do we best protect the wrecks on the shallow areas without finance. Governments will be less inclined to provide finance when all the countries are battling to get our of the red. I hope that Spain now spends some of the value from the coins on employing archaeologists to survey and protect other Spanish shipwrecks around the world. If they put the value of the coins they now have into a sinking fund and use the interest for archaeological surveys of Spanish wrecks, that would pay for a lot of archaeology.

But here is another slant on an increasing problem. The post 1911 shipwrecks, went down with fuel, oil pcb's etc. Here in the great lakes there is a potential time bomb with all the wrecks slowly falling apart and eventually will release the contaminates, which will effect the drinking water supply. The US has a large number of sovereign wrecks in areas which will cause a major problems internationally as a result of the second world war...iron bottom sound to name an area which has millions of tonnes of contaminates. This mess is becoming more urgent and surveys and finance is required to be undertaken now. It is much easier and cost efficient to remove the fuel, pcb's etc now then when the oil slick flows. There is no gold, no silver, just a massive bill which if left will create an ever bigger one. How are they going to pay for these operations?

Perhaps this area of modern archaeology (shipwrecks older than 50 years) is an area where the rift can be healed, salvos and archaeologists working together for the common interests of protecting the wrecks and the sea rather than the quest for profit or the armchair archaeologist approach of the old guard.

The next decade will decide perhaps the governments will need to sell the historic gold and silver to pay to recover the oil to protect the sea...

Best wishes
Simon

Dr. Simon Q. Spooner, BSc, MRICS, PhD, MIfA.

Details on the Anglo~Danish Maritime Archaeological Team with maritime archaeological projects for students, go to www.admat.org.uk

 

[Au_Dreamers]

"Odyssey for the American attitude that "finders keepers" will win on sovereign vessels"

This was not the case and I wonder if the good old doctor read more than press clippings.

Odyssey and the American attitude isn't that "finders keepers" will win on sovereign vessels it is the attitude that you can call it what you will but a ship engage in commercial trade is not a sovereign vessel.

The definition and application of it in this case was completely over looked. It is so clear-cut and simple that the world's 5th graders would probably tell those involved that it was a commercial vessel.

Spain was never liquid enough in all those years to be able to fund their own vessels for them to be strictly on a sovereign mission.