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More of my best relic day-silver piece id

scratcher

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Here's more pictures from the other day including what i think is a forend cap for possibly a KY/PA longrifle. If it measures 29/32s across the opening for the barrel at the octagon portion, can anybody guess the caliber? There are also pictures of what appears to be an old folding knife and some of the best lead. Thanks for the input on the shield-shaped item, CRUSADER. I had hoped it was military. Thanks in advance for any information on the gun.
 

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It is piece of a arm band or arm cuff, definitely trade silver. They were traded to the indians for furs or food......NGE I have a friend who has found 2 " Cruckshanks" double cross bar silver crosses, estimated value by Christie's in the neighborhood of 50 to 75k each, if sold at auction. RC was said to have made less than 100 of these crosses.
 
I would say that your site is probably a Native camp and should be searched thoroughly. Trade items like silver gorgets, armbands, and brooches were quite often cut up by the industrious native into square or diamond shapes and then holed to hang as adornment on their clothing. This was getting the best use out of trade silver as they now had several pieces made out of one. The Natives may have done this to trade amongst themselves, getting more value for their silver pieces. Based on my experience, it is rare to find a whole item because they often cut them up. It is known that diamond shaped pieces with the "chicken scratch" design, without perforation, was used as a counter or a form of currency. The crosses notgittinenny are referring to, were known as "Lorraine"
crosses and were quite large and thick. Most fur trade silver However, was pretty thin in order to make more profit.
I would suggest that you wander around a bit at this site and you may find more camps or even a fur trade post nearby. Dig everything!!!!!
Nice finds.
Dave.
 
Muddyhandz, The fellow that found these crosses found them after 8 feet of topsoil had been removed to install a new drainage field in a county park. It is at the mouth of a creek that drains into the Detroit River very near Lake Erie in Michigan. When they were hunting in the park one day they noticed the dirt being removed, when the equipment reached the blue clay they noticed a large area (30ft. X 18ft.) that was blackened. when the crew left, they went over the orange plastic construction fence ;D,(now who has never done that before?) He found one of the crosses about 3 inches deep in the blackened area (huge firepit) The other was in the overburden that had been piled nearby. Then they started eyeballing trade beads. They went home and got their sifting equipment and shovels. Also while detecting, he located a silver trade thimble. they worked this site for over 6 weeks and nobody was the wiser. Just two people with incredibly tight lips. Heaven forbid a University should find out! Eventually as work progressed, they had a plan so they went and got 75 5 gallon buckets, and filled them with all the firepit material they could get, loaded them into several pickup truck loads, and they took it all home and dumped it in the middle of his garage floor, (so he could sift it during the winter months). Good Choice! They sifted all the dirt and charcoal, and found hundreds of trade beads of all colors including red, blue. When he decided to clean the blue clay out of the thimble, he had a fine mesh screen in the sink in the garage, and as he was picking the loosened clay out of it with a toothpick, he found 35 elongated beads that had holes drilled lengthwise through them. He later found out that they were wampum made out of black coral. I wish he would have told me about this site, while they were still working it. ;D. Now that area is totally recovered and has lush greenery all over the place and no one is the wiser of what they found there :thumbsup: :thumbsup:..........NGE
 
I noticed that this piece of silver with the RC stamp has the same mark symmetrically placed on the other side of the hole. I was wondering if the hole and stamp were made/cut at the same time and this piece was carried with other similar pieces on a loop or wire by the traders. Lengths or pieces were then cut or traded as whole bands? Or was this a piece of jewelry traded whole and then cut up later?? Anybody know for sure?? Thanks
 
I just found my answer about the longrifle nose piece. I found mine about a month ago and had no clue what it was, but decided to keep it just because it was old and unidentified. Glad I kept it. I have attached my find, and a pic of one on a rifle I found on the net. Bryan
 

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After doing a little internet research, I think I can now elaborate on the excellent information supplied by NGE and Dave. As they mentioned this is part of a band which was tightened by what I'll call 'Indian string' around wrist or arm. I found a pic of an almost exact match full band by the same maker, Cruickshank. I thought some of you might enjoy seeing the photo.

M1884.1-2-P1[1].webp

Does anyone know if these cut pieces hold any collector value? Thanks
 
Awesome finds, Scratcher!


==
In reply to the other poster:

...they worked this site for over 6 weeks and nobody was the wiser. Just two people with incredibly tight lips. Heaven forbid a University should find out! Eventually as work progressed, they had a plan so they went and got 75 5 gallon buckets, and filled them with all the firepit material they could get, loaded them into several pickup truck loads, and they took it all home and dumped it in the middle of his garage floor, (so he could sift it during the winter months). ...Now that area is totally recovered and has lush greenery all over the place and no one is the wiser of what they found there...

I find that part of the story disgusting. Sounds like they completely raped the site and now all the valuable information that it contained is pretty much plain gone. It's people like that that get the archies pissed off at detectorists. Shameful.
 
notgittinenny, I was going to directly respond to you, until I saw that you have a fan out there (Blackx) so I will respond to both of you. First off it sounds like a dream come true site and I would have been right in there no questions asked. I do however, go to great lengths to record, catalog, and preserve my artifacts. My goal is to open a museum down the road so that people can actually see these finds. The Archies that I have met are a bunch of miserable, power tripping, self righteous, well I better stop here. After all the yelling and names they have called me, I have no use for them. One year, there was some major construction going on in my city. The site was where a major fort had once been and this fort was the start of our city. Very important site. When a few historical type people called up the government archies and told them that the digging was getting awfully close to the probable fort site, the archies told them that fort wasn't there. After half the fort was gone and people saw the old palisades exposed, Again the archies were called and they finally came out. Someone I know who used to work there said that they knew it was there and they had no money to do anything about it, so they where gonna let it be carried away to the landfill! I have saved many sites from development only to get yelled at about getting a permit. Where were you guys! I found human remains a few years ago along the river where arrowheads where being found. This was in a busy park on a long weekend. I covered up the remains since there were alot of fishermen and people milling about, called the park police who have a few archies on staff and brought them to the site. They were impressed with me. Monday morning back in the city, I called the government archies and they gave me sh** for not calling them first! I never did find out anything about my find. The archies have no money or funding to do anything so they would rather it rot in the ground or be destroyed by development. When they do dig something, it goes in a box and is buried in a warehouse full of amazing treasures never to be seen again. I haven't seen an archaeological report or book published in 30 years so the public isn't learning anything about their history from these guys. I have also learned about corruption within the archie community as collections went missing and things were sold behind closed doors. Like I said before, I better stop now.
notgittinenny, make sure your friend keeps the collection intact and documented. I hope he gets an opportunity to share this amazing collection with others. I'd hate to see it end up in a box, never to be seen again.
Dave.
 

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