Namibian Shipwreck Update

[joecoin]

You would like to have the human bones back? When did you lose them?

It seems it was around 1533.

How old are you?

 

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[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

You would like to have the human bones back? When did you lose them?

It seems it was around 1533.

How old are you?

No different to bringing back bones from unmarked war graves back to their country my friend !
Respect for these great explorers and brave men !
Ossy

 

[Alexandre]

How old are you?

Joecoin.... and I thought I was the English impaired one here...

I wrote "I would just like to have the human bones back" not "I would just like to have MY human bones back".... got it?

 

[sphillips]

I think you missed understood the tongue and cheek comment Joecoi.n made Alexandre.

 

[joecoin]

How old are you?

Joecoin.... and I thought I was the English impaired one here...

I wrote "I would just like to have the human bones back" not "I would just like to have MY human bones back".... got it?

Yes, I "got it". I also fully understand. You would like to have something "back", which you never had in the first place.

 

[Alexandre]

Well, Joe, I could go on here, talking about concepts like archaeology of identity, nationalism and it's symbols, sovereign vessels, proper burial honors, but, somehow, I sense you couldn't care less about that.

As a comparison, I know, for a fact, that American war casualties are treated with the upmost respect by (almost) every US citizen. It appears you are part of that 000.1% of the US population that fails to remove that "almost" from my previous sentence.

 

[sphillips]

Alexandre and Joe, Your comments are getting too personal for the purpose of this forum, so you should take it to private PM if you feel the need to throw more rocks at each other.

 

[joecoin]

OK,

My apologies, I surrender.

 

[Alexandre]

Here´s an update (and you can say later that you first found it on this forum): I have finally nailed Dom Francisco de Noronha, the captain of presumed ship wrecked in Namibia.

It was not an easy task, because there were so many Noronhas around, divided in 8 family branches, and because there were, in this same
period, 3 living Francisco Noronhas and a Fernando Noronha, with whom some contemporaneous chroniclers mistook our Dom Francisco… anyhow, here is the story, believe it or not, he was of the highest nobility and the great-great-grandson of two Kings, a Castilian and a Portuguese one.

The Noronha family originated in 1373, when the Portuguese King Dom Fernando and the Spanish King Enrique II agreed on the marriage of their two illegitimate first borns, Dona Isabel and Dom Afonso, count of Noreña and Gijon since 1369.

Dom Afonso opposed this union violently and even managed to escape to France in order to avoid it, a course of action that would not have any success because his father forced him into the marriage, which happened in 1378.

When the Spanish king died, the fight for the succession was a bitter one. Juan I, his brother, ordered Afonso arrested and kept him in
prison from 1382 till 1391 for fear of having him, married to a Portuguese princess, claiming the throne. He eventually was expelled
from Castilla and went in to Portugal, seeking asylum with his uncle, the then Portuguese King Dom João I.

They had 5 sons and a daughter (and he had also four more illegitimate, 3 sons – Fernando Henriques, Martim Henriques, Diogo Henrique – and a daughter, Beatriz de Noronha).

1) Their first born was Dom Pedro de Noronha who opted out for the clergy life. With the intercession of the Portuguese King besides the
Papacy, he was made Bishop of Évora from 1419 till 1423. After that he was nominated by Pope Martin V as Lisbon’s archbishop . He then was sent to Aragon as an ambassador, in 1428, to arrange the marriage between the prince heir Dom Duarte and Dona Leonor.

2) The second born was Dom João Noronha who was made knight at the conquest of Ceuta, where he fought beside the prince Dom Duarte. He was afterwards severely wounded in a fight with the Moors, and he died of the wounds some time later, leaving no heirs.

3) Their third son was Don Fernando de Noronha who participated in the two initial Ceuta sieges, was captain of a fleet that went to fight
the Moorish pirates of the Straight of Gibraltar and was also present at the unsuccessful siege of Tanger. In 1430, he did a giant leap in
the social ladder by marrying, on an agreement made by the King himself, Dona Beatriz de Meneses, daughter of Dom Pedro Meneses,
Count of Vila Real, captain of Ceuta and the King Chamberlain, effectively making Fernando de Noronha one of the only six members of
the high nobility (of which, 3 were royal infants) and a royal adviser.

4) Their fourth son was Dom Henrique de Noronha, who also participated in the Ceuta siege, where he was also made a knight.

5) Their fifth son was Dom Sancho Noronha who become master of Mortágua, by marrying the daughter of Gonçalo Eanes de Sousa.

6) Finally, Dona Constança de Noronha married Dom Afonso, count of Penafiel, Neiva and Barcelos, duke of Bragança and the illegitimate son of the Portuguese king Dom João I.


Now, let’s go back to their first son, Dom Pedro, the Lisbon archbishop. He sided with the party of the Queen Leonor against the party of Dom Pedro, during the infancy of the future king Dom Afonso V, the African. During the feud, he fortified the Bishop’s Palace, against the will of the Lisbon people and was forced to flee the country towards Castile. When Dom Pedro was ruling as a regent, he was forced to contemporize with the higher nobility and thus we reinstated Dom Pedro as Lisbon’s archbishop and also recognized and legitimized 3 of his 9 illegitimate sons: Dom João, Dona Isabel and Dom Pedro.

No matter that, as soon as the prince Dom Afonso reached adulthood, Dom Pedro conspired with him in order to have him ascend to the
throne, an act that had as a consequence the anger of the regent. He died in 1452.

His second son was also named Dom Pedro. He married Dona Catarina de Távora, daughter of Martim de Távora, chief officer of the King Afonso V. He then become master-butler of the following King, Dom João II and chief master of the Military Order of Santiago (second only to the King, in the Order’s hierarchy). He was also one of the most trusted nobles of the King: he served with João, while he was still a prince at the battle of Toro, against Castile, he delivered the infant Dom Afonso to the Moura precint, to serve as an hostage and a guarantee of the Iberian truces, he commanded the siege of the Sabugal castle and he led an embassy to the Pope Inocent VIII.


Pedro had two sons: the first born was Dom Henrique de Noronha and his second born was Dom Martinho, made Lord of Cadaval by the King shortly before Dom João II died at Alvor in 1495. Before that, Dom Martinho was the nobleman in charge of housing Cristopher Columbus, during his stay in the court of the Portuguese King while he was seeking Portugal's support for his discovery voyage.


Dom Martinho married Dona Guiomar de Albuquerque, daughter of Gonçalo de Albuquerque, Lady of Vila Verde, becoming then a relative of Dom Afonso de Albuquerque.

They had three sons:

1) Dom Pedro de Noronha, Lord of Vila Verde, soldier at Safim, married with Dona Violante de Noronha [and later founder, through his descendency, of two of the most important (and still surviving as we speak) Portuguese noble houses: the Marquis of Fronteira and the Marquis of Angeja];

2) Dom Fernando de Noronha, servant of the prince Dom Luís.

3) And Dom Francisco de Noronha, who died unmarried in this 1533 shipwreck, while serving as a nau captain (in this branch of the Noronha family, there were, at this time, 8 cousins: 4 died en route to India).

 

[FISHEYE]

Just leave the bones at the wreck of the ship.thats where the people died.If you move the bones you will be cursed for life never to touch a shipwreck or treasure ever again.The ghosts of the people who died will haunt you forever.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Great research Alexandre It all means so much more when you have the history.
My wife is from Gijon, and is half Portuguese. Thanks for sharing
Ossy

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Just leave the bones at the wreck of the ship.thats where the people died.If you move the bones you will be cursed for life never to touch a shipwreck or treasure ever again.The ghosts of the people who died will haunt you forever.

FISHEYE, that only applies to Pirates

 

[Alexandre]

Great research Alexandre It all means so much more when you have the history.
My wife is from Gijon, and is half Portuguese. Thanks for sharing
Ossy

What a combination, Ossy!

 

[Africa]

A very interesting story indeed, at least the history of this ship has been sorted out, I do not care what happens to the contents of the ship, but I must say that museums are soemtimes not the best place to store or put items of our history, there are too many loop holes where items go missing and thus are lost for ever or they just rot away in the ground or under the sea.