Need advice for shallow water recovery

[CortezDiver]

Hi, i want to try to look for some coins, etc.. from a wreck which is in shallow waters,in Mexico, from 10 to maybe 30 ft. deep.( As soon as i get all the info i need as far as permission to dive the site,etc.).Most of the time there are breaking waves and strong currents but is sometimes diveable near the shore. The wreck is said to be buried in 8- 15 ft. of sand , but i'm hoping there is enough scattered around to find something. I have a dredge and access to a boat for a propwash if that is an option. I am totally new to treasure hunting underwater but am an experienced diver. I need some advice and ideas on how to aproach this wreck in hopes of recovering something. It's just an idea right now that i'm trying to put together and you all seem to be the ones i can ask that wont think i'm crazy, lol, thx for any info you can give, Kevin

 

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[ochoescudo]

Re: Need advice for shallow water recovery>>well...

Well Kevin...you are crazy.....we all are!

Once you get the treasure bug forget about it.

Ok...serious now.....are you working one of the Gold Rush steamers or that Manilla Galleon that supposedly has all the China on it? Are you on the Pacific or Gulf side...or the Sea of Cortez?
You don't have to answer that.....but please do!

Spend some time diving the areas inshore from it first. Do you know where it is or are you just guessing? If you work inshore you can use a metal detector to find objects which have been thrown into shallow water by storms. If there are rocky areas go over those first. Brass and bronze objects like spikes and nails are a good sign. Coins are even better?

Now, let's say you think you're dialed in on the wreck, don't even consider going at it with a dredge or blower until you know you won't be detected. Working wrecks in foreign lands is a sure way to get locked up. I have friends who have first hand experience with that!

The getting permission part is an insane nightmare. If you have proof that you've found a wreck you'll need to present it to the authorities who can grant the permission. Then they will want to see it for themselves. Then when the see the wreck they will refuse permission because they won't need you anymore!

On the other hand you won't get permission unless you offer proof that you've found something...... Catch22....

If you do get into that process expect to spend huge amounts of money on lawyers and bribes and reconcile yourself to the probability that you either won't get permits or if you do the Mexican government will screw you out in the end anyway (that happens in Latin America and right here in the good old USA). Oh yeah...the process can take years or decades.

I'm not trying to discourage you but you need to be carefull about how you do this thing.

So you need to answer these questions for me to have some idea how best to help you:

-Do you know where the wreck is?
-Have you recovered anything yet? If so, what?
-What period do you think the wreck is?
-What kind of coins are there or what kind of coins do you think are there?
-Can you work the wreck without much scrutiny from locals or authorities?
-Do you think you can recover coins or artifacts without mechanical assistance?
-Is your goal to recover treasure and have a good time or are you more interested in the academic, archaelogical aspect of diving the wreck?
-Are you doing this alone or do you have help?
-Do any of the locals know there's a wreck there?

Finally....find a copy of the book "Finders Losers" (subtitled "The Lucayan Treasure Find") by Jack Slack (copyright 1967) and read it before you get any deeper into this project. You may save yourself a lot of trouble. Scour local, used book stores and if they don't have it, fill out a form and have them find it for you.

Good luck and don't get caught.

 

[lonewolfe]

I agree with ochoescudo above,

if you go treasure hunting in Mexican waters, you're asking for trouble.

Fines (big fines).

Confiscation of your equipment, finds, boat/s, detector/s, scuba, etc. etc.

Time in a mexican jail possibly

back stabbing by their Gov. by you giving them the local of the sunken vessel and then they throw you out of the country.

and the list goes on!

Let us know if it works out and show some pics

 

[CortezDiver]

Thanks for the great advice guys. I am still in the planning stages and have much research and learning to do , here is what i have so far: The wreck i want to dive is the "Golden Gate"which you probably know has already been salvaged, for the most part. I don't plan on finding much of anything, but there aren't many other wrecks in theses waters to choose from.? Any prospects you may want to offer would be appreciated.I am also doing some research on the "Thayer", near Isla Tiburon. I live in Tucson, so, the further north in the Sea of Cortez, the better for me, but i am willing to do some traveling. I am a beginner at the treasure hunting game, but it has always been a dream of mine that will be alot of fun and of course, hard work.There is some information that suggests that there may still be more to find on the Golden Gate and i do realize that most , if not all, of what i find i would have to give up to the authorities but I'm willing to try ...IF.... i could get a reasonable agreement, but then, you know how agreements can go with the Mexican Govt. One minute you could have an agreement , little do you know you made it with the wrong person because they are so unorganized or someone else wants the loot, then the right person catches you and you find yourself in a jail or worse. I know it can be very risky if i'm not careful.? I have been in contact with a local dive shop there in Manzanillo and one of the instructors has told me that i wont need permission if i just want to dive the site with a metal detector or a small dredge but if it were a larger operation, then i would. Now, just like you suggest, this still isn't good enough for me, so i will still go through the proper channels before i get into any trouble. I have been diving in Mexico for many years and know how some things work down there. I have a 50 ft. ketch in San Carlos and my wife is still a Mexican citizen and has some connections,which should help me to find the proper channels to go through. So.. I think it is worth trying to get the permission first and then worry about techniques later. It sounds like that will be a huge hurdle to jump. Thx again

 

[ochoescudo]

Re: Need advice for shallow water recovery>>More thoughts

OK let me be clear....

Don't try to get involved with getting permission to dive the wrecks and recover coins and artifacts. I don't care what kind of contacts your Mexican friends claim to have it just isn't going to work.

If you do make official contact with the government on the matter you will have raised a red flag and declared that you're a treasure hunter. That is not good because they will start a dossier on you and you will become someone that the Mexican Govt. is interested in, not in a good way.

I know guys who tried to do the same thing in another Latin American country and they became the targets of the authorities who followed them whenever they went diving. They tried to do the right thing and got nowhere with it. Then when they tried to dive the wrecks covertly it was impossible because the authorities were looking to bust them to make an example.

Now the guy in the dive shop says it's no big deal if you use a dredge on the wreck.....so what?!....he's a guy who works in a dive shop (no offense to him in that regard but I hardly think it qualifies him as an expert on Mexican patrimony laws).

>>It is illegal, in Mexico, for you go dredging up artifacts from a shipwreck there!!!<<

Maybe you'll get busted, maybe not but the more reason the locals and the law have to think that you're doing it the more chance of getting busted.

So here's how you should proceed:
-Dive the wrecks for fun and maybe to find some goodies. Don't tell any locals you're doing so! Keep a low profile.

-Sample the wrecks and take your time. Don't dive any wreck for more than two consecutive days.

-Have a cover story. Nothing extravagant. Carry a small underwater camera with you and if any locals or cops ask what your doing out there tell them you're taking pictures. When you're diving from your boat take a speargun down with you and set it somewhere easy to find. Then when you come up hand the speargun to someone in the boat. Looks like you're spearfishing (check the mexican fishing regs on that one). If someone stays in the boat they should have a fishing pole and be casting or jigging. Take the hooks off the jig if you don't really want fish. You want to look like tourists.

-Don't involve any equipement (including your boat) that you're not willing to have confiscated. It happens.

Now for the techincal part:

If you want to move sand or blow a hole through it to find coins buy yourself an underwater scooter. They are awsome for blowing huge holes down to bedrock. Get at least two extra batteries for it because burn time will be about 40 minutes to an hour. Also you need to weight it so you don't just rocket up off the bottom. Twenty to thrity pounds should make it manageable.

The nice thing about the scooter is you can use it for excavation but to anyone observing you they think it's just a dorky, Gringo toy

Go dive the wrecks. Use the scooter to move some sand. Find potholes in the rocks and blow them out. For smaller potholes and crevices just fan the sand away with your hand. A detector might be useless on the Golden Gate because there will be thousands of pieces of brass and lead (gold rush steamers I've dived do). If you start seeing coins or you're getting close to bedrock, ease back on the scooter throttle or the coins will be flipped out of the hole and you may not see them (except the gold coins....they glow underwater).

If you find coins don't tell anyone!.....Not your Mexican friends.....not locals and especially not your dive shop buddy. Do you really want him competing with you? There's also the jealousy factor. If you start showing gold coins that you've found some people are going to resent you for it and maybe try to make trouble for you. Gold does funny things to people.

I want you to dive those wrecks and I hope you find buckets full of coins! But you gotta be careful.

 

[CortezDiver]

Ochoescudo, you are right on the money, so to speak, with your advice,thank you! i will be bothering you further for some advice if you dont mind, CortezDiver

 

[ochoescudo]

Happy to help.

 

[buckmild1]

I would add one thing to Ochoescudo's wise advice. Bag everything you are gonna keep and leave them at the site. Weight them or anchor them to the bottom. Then you could gather them when you are ready to leave the country and are not riding around for days with contriband. Just my two Wheaties. I am by no means a diver of old wrecks, just a man with a new detector thingy. HH.

CHRIS

 

[lobsterman]

ochoescudo sounds to be very well versed in these matters, i agree with him completely, and i think that you would do well to heed his wise advice. good luck.
Pat.