No 1715 vessels made it over the Dunes ....

[CaptJohn]

I have an idea that none of the 1715 fleet made it over the Dunes. Large waves have a crest and a bottom, the smaller vessels may have floated over the reefs, but most likely sunk before hitting the reefs in ruff water, and even if they did float over the reefs they would not have washed up over the dunes. When Kathrina hit the Waveland and gulfport area which does NOT have dunes, its all low land beach, a few boats of only the 50 foot length size only washed inland several blocks and the waves were over 20 feet, 28 feet if I remember right. A 80 ft tugboat was only across the street (hwy 90 which runs along the beach) in a low shoreline area when Camille came thru decades ago. What I saw of the Treasure Coast beach and dunes, the average tide line is 20 feet or more below the dunes line. We don't know the size of the 1715 storm but chances are it was not of the Camille or Katrina size in surge and wave height.....

Is it known if survivors from EACH of the 11 ships were found? And either way, I guess we don't know if they were found north of the main camp.

 

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[mad4wrecks]

Some people are of the thinking that yes, wreckage from some of the ships made it onto and over the barrier island and into the Indian River lagoon. There is even mention of this in Phillip Olin's book, Treasure, the Business and Technology. We know from archival documentation that the superstructure of the La Holandesa ended up high on the beach and was used by survivors and salvors for shelter.

We have no idea what category strength the 1715 hurricane was, but we do have archival documents that quote several well seasoned mariners that "the likes of it, they had never seen before."

There were survivors found north of the main camp. In fact, several survivors floated to the beach on the north side of Cape Canaveral.

No survivors were found from two of the ships, the San Miguel and the El Ciervo. It was reported that thus, they must have sunk in deep water on the high seas, but this may not be the case.

 

[CaptJohn]

I heard that they made shelters at the camp from the Big ship, was that the La Holandesa whose superstructure that ended up high on the beach? Any Idea as to the draft of that ship or of any of the smaller ones. I can see the superstructure making it farther up the dunes that a entire deep draft vessel. And surely as the surge crested the top of the dunes, the surge would have rushed down into the sound waters so fast that I don't see how it could have floated a vessel into the sound. If one made it intact to the top of the Dunes, I think it would have tumbled down towards the sound and busted up and they would have found it the next day.
But I also know that cuts of flowing water can be made thru the Dunes by a Hurricane, so I realized that some how it could have happened, but I am begining to doubt that the majority of any one vessel made it over the Dunes into the sound. I have heard of some ramdom finds, such as a 24 lb gold bar kicked up by a fisherman in the sound.... but nothing esle with it.... could have been hid out by a survivors planning on getting it later...?

 

[Overeasy]

Gee, I love these discussions....I was once told by a construction worker that they found a wooden keel at a site on the beach he refered to as, I think, the "Kelly House" somewhere north of Vero Beach. It was on top of the dune. They were just starting to prepare the lot for construction....Anybody ever hear of this The keel was slightly buried in the sand and they first noticed it when someone stood on it and another person who was on the other end moved.

 

[bigscrub]

hello, are you saying no 1715 fleet treasure made it to the beach area? I know personal friends who have and did find good pieces from the fleet back in the early 80's and was invited to go on a thanksgivng weekend...but chose not to go because of a winter storm going on at the time...it was freezing cold and wind howling...but they(about 6 guys) did quite well that weekend..silver,gold coins, and also a few other gold pieces of jewelry that mel fisher wanted..and offered to buy /trade for...just a little true story for the tneters...smile,big scrub...i always regreted not going on that trip...but who could have known!

 

[CaptJohn]

Almost, NO, I'm saying that I don't think any ships made it UP OVER and beyound the DUNES, andinto the Sound. But you know , I am also saying NO ship made it to the beach..... pieces of ships made it to the beaches.

 

[billinstuart]

My feeling is that some of the smaller ships that only drew a few feet of water did indeed end up on a beach somewhere. The galleons certainly hit bottom first and the hulls remained offshore. The sterncastles probably washed ashore.

I found the keel of the America (1885) across the dunes a couple years ago, and talked to Tommy Gore about it. He, too, wondered how it got there. Turns out it was physically removed from the beach by heavy equipment and drug to its' location by the road to be retrieved later. It had just washed up on the beach due to wave action from Wilma(?) when it was found.

 

[ivan salis]

a whole basically intact large ship being blown over the dunes nah not too likely ---however smaller *shallow draft type vessels) like say a patache class vessel washing up onto the beaches or being shoved up on the beach and into the dune faces by massive waves during the storm surge waves--or wreckage from a vessel ( boards and bits of stuff) flying around like crazy carrying over into the dunes --or stuff being carried over the dunes later on to make shelters from no doubt that it could happen in my veiw.

 

[IndianRiverSonrise]

I've heard a rumor of a pirate ship that washed over into the river. I think it is possible but unlikely that a galleon was dropped whole in the river. But we don't know what the hurricane was like AND we don't know what the dunes/barrier islands were like at the time. Treasurebeachesreport.blogspot.com mentioned a book that I looked up and has indeed some interesting facts on wave action and forces both observed and calculated that make it seem very possible. Also posted was a page talking about how huge objects such as concrete blocks were lifted and thrown over breakwaters, but that referred primarily to areas where the tides and wave forces are generally more pronounced than what we find on the Treasure Coast. In my mind, one of the big variables would be the height of the water built up against the island at the time, which would depend on a lot of things. But the book he mentions is very interesting.

 

[CaptJohn]

What about Treasure... sizable amounts.... Do you think parts of any of the 1715 ships large enuff to contain chest of coins or other treasure made it over the dunes, into the sound?

 

[Atticus Finch]

What about Treasure... sizable amounts.... Do you think parts of any of the 1715 ships large enuff to contain chest of coins or other treasure made it over the dunes, into the sound?

This last post was February..I find it amusing that Capt John asked IF any treasure might be in the dunes..and then like an anchor the thread disappeared. lol.

 

[mad4wrecks]

CaptJohn actually asked if any treasure made it OVER the dunes and into the sound (Indian River). My opinion is that the hurricane didn't wash any wreckage that far inland, but there may be treasure there across from the salvage camps because it was hidden from attempted raids by pirates.

 

[deepsix47]

I don't know of any absolute proof that a wreck made it over but there has been treasure recovered from the intercoastal by several people. It should also be noted that cannon have been reported in the Intercoastal. One account is from a Sebastian Postmaster.

There are also stashes that have been recovered on the mainland. One was recovered while we were working the Fleet on a full time basis. It is well documented and made all of the papers. As far as the dunes go, you will probably go to jail if you get caught digging in there but there is no doubt treasure there.

I personally think that at least pieces of some of the wrecks did make it across. Could they have carried some treasure, who knows. The fact is though, treasure as well as artifacts have been recovered (would the survivors have hidden such things from the pirates as well as the treasure?).

Deepsix

 

[Overeasy]

I wonder if the Indians (Ays) carried any coins or other items over the dunes and over to the other side of the river..I think most of the time they were on the other side of the river. There were big shell mounds over there. They might have dumped some in the river, who knows....

 

[deepsix47]

I wonder if the Indians (Ays) carried any coins or other items over the dunes and over to the other side of the river..I think most of the time they were on the other side of the river. There were big shell mounds over there. They might have dumped some in the river, who knows....

I'm sure the Indians did recover some of the treasure and take it back to the mainland. It didn't take them long to see the Spaniards for what they were. Regardless of who took treasure onto the mainland, some did make it. There are a number of documented instances of cashes being found around the Sebastian area.

You mentioned the Mounds in the area. Yes, there are many but stay away from them. Mounds are a sure way to go to jail here in Florida.

Deepsix

 

[wyobuck]

I recently detected a 3 mile section of beach at Sandy Point. It was during a very high tide period and although I was there at low, I was amazed to see where the high tide line was. I thought to myself, that if a strong huricane hit at high tide, some of the houses there would easily be swept into the river. I wouldn't be surprised if parts of the fleet were in the river, if not all of some of the smaller ships. Just my opinion.

 

[Overeasy]

The other day while driving down A1A past the little museum that is the site of the 1715 camp just south of the inlet, I was wondering if anybody ever got up on top of the dunes in the scrub brush and hunted with a MD? ..they would have to be wearing a suite of armour and drown themselves in insect repellent but it could be interesting....There is some rough areas in there.

 

[CaptJohn]

I have read that some of the period salvage efforts were divers who could free dive about 20 to 30 feet and recover items from the bottom. Also after the storm, people , live and dead where found on the beaches. If any major pieces of a ship made it over the dunes, there most likely would have been someone holding on and rode it into the sound area. If major amounts of valuables were aboard, and the structure could be seen or located or someone riding it knew where it was, It Seems that it would have been easier to dive on it and recovery items that dive in the ocean. I know the water in the sound may not be as clear, but for a salvage operation, it would have been smoother and shallower. If this was done of course a few items could still be scattered around in the sound, and of course boxes or loose pieces could have tumbled out into the mud botton of the sound waters.
Also treasure found in the area but on the mainland, mentioned earlier is very interesting. That's a LONG WAY , if the items were moved from the beach wreck site, across the sound all the way to the main lands. With no boat to help move it there, Of course a small boat could have been built from timber salvaged on the beach..... Or did pirates move it, or did Indians move it, OR did the surviours get a boat from the Indians ..... OR was it washed up across the sound to the mainland shore during the storm and a surviour buried it?

 

[Overeasy]

Years ago I had someone E-mail me on this subject and say that they had found cannon balls on some of the islands, but that had to be ten years ago.... I wonder if the man who made the "cut" around the turn of the century found anything since his cut was in the same area....

 

[JackInFlorida]

Sure, there is no way boats went over the dunes. Mother nature just isn't that powerful.



From Hurricane Katrina.

Jack