Opinions on my reply to state parks requirements

[pennyfarmer]

Here is a email that I penned asking about detecting at a state park beach here in Utah. My honest opinion is that we should be allowed even if a permit is required.

Their first reply along with my first email regarding detecting:
Re: Willard bay inquiry‏
From: Brad Adkins (bradadkins@utah.gov)
Sent: Thu 7/31/08 1:30 PM
To: john natile monroe (XXXXXXXX@msn.com)

Hello,
Metal detecting is not legal at state parks unless you have obtained a special use permit from the park (in this case Willard Bay). Even then, it is illegal to remove anything from a state park so anything you find, by law, must be turned in at the park or given to a park ranger.
If you're still interested, please call Willard Bay directly at (435) 734-9494.
Hope this helps clarify things.

Brad Adkins
Utah State Parks
1594 W North Temple
Suite 116
Salt Lake City UT 84116
(801) 538-7220
(877) UT-PARKS (toll-free)
www.stateparks.utah.gov

Learn. See. Play.


>>> "john natile monroe" <XXXXXX@msn.com> 7/31/2008 1:36 AM >>>

Willard Bay Rangers and Managers,

I was wondering what the rules are for metal detecting on the beach at Willard bay? I was wanting to make a trip there for this activity but wanted to be sure I will be legal.

Thanks,
John







My proposed reply:

Brad Adkins,

I understand your requirement for a permit to metal detect on State lands, it does seem to be a prudent measure to combat incompetent detectorists who do not adhere to the Metal Detectorist's Code of Ethics. I could copy this code here but I am sure you can research this code further if you take me seriously.

One thing that I do question is the fact that all finds are to be turned in to a "Ranger". I for one question the motive behind such a requirement. Is this turn in order to determine if the item was lost by a previous guest of the park? If so I am all for determining the rightful owner. I for one have been on the down side of loosing a valuable belonging. Does the park keep a running log of all things reported lost? I for one would be a gracious finder and return any item reported lost that is deemed undeniably the property of an unfortunate soul that lost such items. If the purpose is to determine if an item is from antiquity then I am also all for reporting the finds and helping my country and state in sorting out any unknown history that may have taken place in this location. But honestly how is allowing metal detectorist to detect but turn in their .75 cents really going to further the cause of Utah state parks? The possible root of your decision lays in the DAR file # 27442. That file addresses the need for control on our hobby not unlike the control the state issues on other sports and hobbies, such as fishing, hunting and 4X4 trails. Here is a quote from that file; "Parks receive numerous calls each year from people wanting to do metal detecting activities within the parks. The law is not specific enough that it addresses metal detecting, so if the Division requires a permit for metal detecting it can control the activity within the state parks. Metal detecting will be allowed only with a permit from the park, otherwise, it will be prohibited.". This does not state that all items have to be turned in, although I would understand if Willard bay were to state that archeological items need to be turned in, or that valuable items have to be checked with a list of "lost" items.

One thing that would help you out is the tremendous service THOUGHTFUL detectorists would do for you. How would you like it if there were people willing to clean the beaches of sharp metal and glass objects? Here we are, I carry a pouch where all trash items are kept to be later disposed of. I have a family that also uses these beaches, and I do not want to see them hurt. Having a crew that you do not pay who cleans up items that could injure future guests of the park does not seem like a bad idea, esspecially when they paying you to enter.

If I turned in the .75 cents that I found that day, would there be a reportable account of where that money was spent? I would hope that such money was spent at the good of the park as I use Willard bay for many other recreactional sports. See I am also a fisherman and on occasion take my boat out to entertain my children.

I belong to a metal detecting club in northern Utah and I know many detectorist who would love to visit their many state parks and partake of thier favorite activity, not to rob the other residents of their history but to occasionaly find a corroded quarter or gold ring. These users of the state parks would do far less damage than any fisherman or water skier and likely become your best friend.

I would like to keep a open dialog on this matter, and invite the Willard Bay Park manager to one of our club meetings. We are gracious hosts and would love to be able to speak one on one.

Sincerly,
John Monroe

Please let me know what you think of my proposed response. I know I could have just "did it" but there is enough evidence on the web that it is not allowed without permission that I deemed it not a good idea.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

I understand your frustration. I do not think your letter will do anything to change their minds, as logical and true as your facts are.

One thing you might want to keep in mind (although it's too late now, since you already asked), is would anyone really have paid any attention to you if you'd just gone and done it? Especially for beach hunting, for pete's sake! Example: A reply like yours, might also be something I would hear, here in CA, if I were to ask far enough up the bureaucratic ladder "Can I detect at state-of-CA beaches?". Ie.: I might find someone to tell me "no" (or riddle me with rules, like turning in all jewelry, alerting an archaeologist if I found an old coin, blah blah blah). But the fact of the matter is, state of CA beaches get detected all the time, since the dawn of detectors, and no one's ever been bothered. I would hate to ask someone, have them look it up in their books, and find something they THINK applies (like "don't disturb the vegetation"), and tell me "no", when in fact, we've been going in full view of anyone and everyone, for 30+ yrs.

 

[pennyfarmer]

Tom,

I could quite frankly give a rats behind if they let me into this park. I feel up for a fight or at least some dialog about the idiocy of such a rule. They are at the point of taking all of the right away in my state as it is. Our club has assisted and helped many agencies and tried to further our hobby but we just seemed to be tossed to the wolves. In my opinion there are very few honorable archeologists most line their pockets with the spoils of their jobs. Enough of my dislike for those people.

I just think that them banning a certain user from the park is ridiculous. I have never hunted at this place before but I would love to see if a few people dedicated enough could get them to change. As I stated I am all for a special permit to be used in some places. That would be necessary to combat the bad in our ranks. I may be sending this off soon just to see what I might do. I just don't want to hurt the cause and if you see anything that might be seen as attacking I want to curb that as much as possible.

 

[Is this thing on?]

I sympathize with you 100%. I had recently run into the same red tape here in town. As far as our rights being taken away, as American citizens, this is to be expected in this day and age.

Chris

 

[2fishon]

That is disappointing. I completely understand your trying to do the right thing and ask before you go. I honestly believe that the park rangers would have no clue if MDing was allowed or not. I can only liken it to the many times the fish cops don't understand the regulations. How many people have been ticketed for having rainbows at Strawberry beacause they had throat slashes? I would send your reply and hope for the best. Now would be a really good time to MD at Willard with the water so low. Yuba also.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Penny-farmer, you say: "I just think that them banning a certain user from the park is ridiculous." Of course, we agree on that. Yes, it's ridiculous. What I was saying is, "how did you come up with that information, in the first place?" You asked.

Let me give it to you in this example: There was a state park near Santa Cruz, CA where a buddy of mine and his friends used to hunt the campgrounds anytime they felt like it. No one ever said anything to them, for all the years they hunted it. Yup, even in full view of rangers, etc..... In fact, it never even occured to my friends that it required "asking". I mean, afterall, it's a public park, right?

Well one day, they got booted, by a ranger they'd seen on numerous occasions before. When they asked him "why?", all he would say is "it's not allowed". So they left. About a week later, he was at his local dealer's house shooting the breeze, when a newbie customer came by. As the 3 of them talked, the newbie, who had just purchased his first machine, lamented that he'd been told "no" at such & such park. Turned out, the newbie had gone up to the ranger's entrance kiosk, and asked "is metal detecting allowed here?". The attendant on duty tells him something to the effect "hmm, I don't know, let me check...." He turns to various books and pamphlets, and can't seem to find anything specific. So he gets on the phone and calls to the head district office. Eventually, he comes back to the window, and tells the guy "no". Apparently that ranger is the one, who a few days later, sees my friend, and boots him. Now that it's fresh in his mind, he must think "aha! there's one of them"

You can imagine the frustration of my friend, realizing that previously no one cared, and now all of the sudden a park is off-limits. Do you see what I'm trying to say?

Yes, I know it's a catch 22, because you're trying to protect yourself, for if there really HAD been some sort of rule, that really WAS enforced. All I can say to that is, if you are skittish, look it up for yourself. Don't go ask a live person. State park rules should be available on-line @ the internet somewhere. If it is silent on the issue (doesn't say anything about md'ing), then just go. Because the minute you couch your question in terms of "permission" or "can I", you merely put someone in a position of allowing them to say "no", simply because they say so. And trust me, they WILL get away with that! Ie.: a rule specifically disallowing detecting doesn't have to exist: I once got booted from a place, where there was no prohibitions. I got upset (much like you are upset with your injustice now), and explored the possibility of challenging this booting. I ran it by a lawyer friend of mine like this: "Can a park personell arbitrarily boot me, and say my activity is not allowed, if it is not specifically disallowed or mentioned in the actual written rules?". The lawyer said "yes, they can". Because they, as public servants, are entrusted to make judgements for the public's good. In other words, rules are written loosely, so that they can apply to a number of different situations, however a park personell sees fit. They are given latitude, in their job, to apply things. It has to be this way, otherwise everyone would be arguing with every single cop and ranger, on semantics, to try to wriggle out of tickets or bootings. Example: "yes officer, I saw the sign that says 'no drinking alcohol', but I was not 'drinking' this beer, I was 'sipping' it. Therefore I have not broken the law, and you can not tell me to put my beer away"

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Well it appears that the answer you got from your bureaucrat friend, was not arbitrary. If you had done your own research (instead of asking a live person), you would have found that it is indeed in writing, specifically addressed:

http://www.rules.utah.gov/publicat/bulletin/2004/20041015/27442.htm

A few things catch my eye, when reading this site. For starters, this edict is fairly recent: 2004 And the reason for them addressing this issue is spelled out plainly: "Parks receive numerous calls each year from people wanting to do metal detecting activities within the parks. " Doh! There it is again: ask enough questions, and you will indeed get a bureaucrat to invent a rule, to "address your pressing issue"

It is still possible that the rank and file really don't know or care about such minutia. Example: I know a guy, who ... not knowing any better ..... spent an entire several weeks detecting at a federal beach ("Stinson") here in CA. He was amazed at the vast quantities of good finds, to the tune of many hundreds of coins per day, as fast as he could dig them. He was just amazed that the local md'rs in that area weren't "more on top of this". One day, he revealed to me where he was getting all his stuff from. Imagine his surprise when I told him "that beach is supposedly off limits". He just simply couldn't believe it! He'd been out there every day, in broad daylight, even walking right around staffed life-guard towers, right past passing ranger trucks, etc..... and no one ever said anything to him! Ie.: no one really cared! (except some bookworm in a stuffy office answering letters in the state capitol).

 

[pennyfarmer]

Tom,

That is the exact thing that I found when I was submitting my email. I knew there were rules against it, I just wanted to get a firm answer. The answer I recieved was that I would need a permit. I didn't imply in my first email that I knew anything about any laws just to see what the answer would be.

Believe me I would not have asked the question if I knew there were no specifics aimed at our hobby. I knew there was a law forbidding the activity but I do know of one or two places where the rangers are happy to see detectorists cleaning the beaches. I am hoping to lead to that type of relationship with this particular park because they have essentially drained the resivoir and it would be a great opportunity to hit the beach area.

I am miffed at officials that are ignorant of of hobby and just off handedly dismiss us.

I need to understand how to discuss this with officials and not send them the wrong message right off. I totaly understand the permit because I know some awful detectorist who just make a mess of our hobby.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Penny farmer, you say: " ....I do know of one or two places where the rangers are happy to see detectorists cleaning the beaches. "

How do you know this? Have you detected there un-bothered? Or heard of others who did so? In any case, this just prooves the point that letters like the one you sent, often get answered by bureaucrats locked in stuffy offices, whose job it is to answer such minutia. The rank and file in the field, often don't care or know about such things. If it were me, I'd certainly "test the waters". If it's not posted, seems the most someone could say is "scram". And my experience is that happens less than .0003% of the time. So why lock myself out of hunting ground?

 

[ldeckert]

John,

Your reply sounds good to me. I'm thinking of getting back into metal detecting after a 20 year absence, and was checking out various sites to see what has changed.

Larry
Sandy, Ut

 

[MUD(S.W.A.T)]

I think anything we can do about these dumb laws are important. I think we should take it to the highest offices of government. It's selective and favoritism for the other people who use the parks. We are saving historical artifacts from being destroyed by nature. It is unfair to us and should be changed....

Keep @ it and HH!!

 

[deepskyal]

I wouldn't turn in a pull tab to a ranger.

Some years ago I was fishing a creek in Erie for lake trout. There were several of us on a weekend outing and the fishing was terrible.
On the third day, after getting absolutely no bites, I got one.

I reeled in my fish, a nice 20+ incher. I was happy as a lark...until....along comes some old guy in farmers bib overalls, flannel shirt and hat and asks to see that nice fish I caught as I was putting it in the cooler.

He then procedes to whip out his wallet and show me his Fish commission ID and told me I snagged the fish, it was illegal, and I had to go with him so he could write me a ticket.

The fish was still alive and I asked if i just couldn't put it back. He said NO...too late.

Now...I know snagging of fish is illegal. I wasn't attempting to snag this fish...heck...you couldnt see anything in the water it was so murky. I guess the fish hit my hook and instead of it going in his mouth, I got him in the side of his face. It was an incidental snag, not intentional snag.

Anyhow...as we neared the office, another officer in uniform was sitting on the bench outside. The officer escorting me hailed him and asked him if he wanted a nice trout to take home for dinner. He said sure.

So....it wasn't okay for me to keep this illegal fish, which besides paying for my fishing license, I paid for my Erie stamp AND my trout stamp...and a 50 dollar fine...but it was okay for them to keep it.

That fish cost me almost $80.00...and I didnt get to eat it. But the ranger did.

So....you think I'd ever trust one again, especially if it came down to turning in something of value?...for them to do what with it?

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

Al