✅ SOLVED Opinions on the Dove

[intensecrasher]

I would like to know what everyone thinks about this Dovetail. I am considering buying it (something I rarely do) It was found in Illinois and is made of Burlington...(I know that is a red flag). I am not very good at determining authenticity by pictures and would like your opinions. I realize the symmetry is a little off but I think it could from resharpening or an ancient repaired break?

The point is papered by someone who I have mixed feelings about....but I'm not buying the paper. I think the asking price is worth the risk.

Thanks

 

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[joshuaream]

Since you asked, I don't like the way the patina is sitting in those hinges near the notches (strait lines), and I don't like the micro flaking to finish the edges.

Patina often looks like that when it's applied, rubbed in, and then wiped off. The micro flaking would dull the piece slightly, not typical to see on a heavily resharpened dove. (If the maker was that worried about edge finish and symmetry, he would have straitened up the outline when he resharpened the point.)

 

[intensecrasher]

Since you asked, I don't like the way the patina is sitting in those hinges near the notches (strait lines), and I don't like the micro flaking to finish the edges.

Patina often looks like that when it's applied, rubbed in, and then wiped off. The micro flaking would dull the piece slightly, not typical to see on a heavily resharpened dove. (If the maker was that worried about edge finish and symmetry, he would have straitened up the outline when he resharpened the point.)

I was wondering about the dark lines along the hinge fractures. It looks like someone could have rubbed some kind of stain over the piece... I didn't really think about the micro flaking. I don't get to hunt much anymore and would like to start buying some stuff but it is a whole new learning process for me. Thank you for your insight!!!

 

[intensecrasher]

Other side and close up of notches. Color variation is from the camera. Both sides are true to the color of the lighter picture.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Since you asked, I don't like the way the patina is sitting in those hinges near the notches (strait lines), and I don't like the micro flaking to finish the edges.

Patina often looks like that when it's applied, rubbed in, and then wiped off. The micro flaking would dull the piece slightly, not typical to see on a heavily resharpened dove. (If the maker was that worried about edge finish and symmetry, he would have straitened up the outline when he resharpened the point.)

I have to agree with Joshua. The flaking looks very suspect and the patina looks like it was rubbed on. I would pass on it.

 

[intensecrasher]

Thanks Reaper!

 

[intensecrasher]

OK so I have been comparing this to known authentic examples and to be honest it has been hard to find an authentic dove that has visible step fractures! The few that I did find look nothing like the dark lines on the dove i WAS considering. Its not that I do not value your opinions...i am trying to learn how to see red flags. At this point unless I hear something from someone like Neanderthal, I am passing on it.

Does anyone have any advise on books or other learning avenues that will help me identify modern points? I know Jim Bennett has a good book but I have been unable to find it for sale.

 

[Steve Ia]

It would be good to get Hippy's opinion, although Joshua and Grim are probably right I know Hippy knows his doves.

 

[monsterrack]

There is to much dirt in the hinge marks, most collectors would have cleaned up that point when it was found. If that was patina it would be some where else than just in the cracks and 1 step fracture on the side in the top photo puts up a red flag to me. On most real artifacts that would have broken off due to freezing and other factors and some of the chipping in one of the ears does not look right, but yeah if it does not cost much it could be a good study piece.

 

[Hippy]

I would definitely steer clear of this one. The percussion flaking seems much more random than I would like to see. Also, the notches are just a bit off. I've noticed somewhat of a pattern about dovetail punch notching and this doesn't really exhibit what I would expect. Also, when you compare it to another point that this person is selling I would say they were patinated in the same fashion. The notches on the Thebes are really bad and not what you would expect to see.

Hope this helps a bit.

Hippy

 

[intensecrasher]

Thanks Hippy and everyone else! I will be passing on this one....I think I would rather save up and get a nice 5 inch dove that I know is authentic!

 

[monsterrack]

Does anyone have any advise on books or other learning avenues that will help me identify modern points? I know Jim Bennett has a good book but I have been unable to find it for sale.[/QUOTE]

Some may not agree to this and yet some will, one way is to learn what modern stone knapping looks like, is to get a flint knapping kit and give it a try. Another is to look at photos of real points and pay close attention to every detail of the style, the flaking and the type of stone. JMO when you know how stone works when knapping it gives you a better insight to how Native Americans made them.