P. C. Bicknell -- "A Rock Cabin in a Cave"

[skyhawk1251]

In his newspaper article, published in the San Francisco Chronicle (January 13, 1895), P. C. Bicknell writes that he "succeeded in finding a rock cabin in a cave, but it was the work of cliff dwellers ..."

I doubt if he wrote of the ruins at Tonto National Monument, so where was the "rock cabin in a cave" that he found?

 

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[Hinterlander]

I'm pretty sure, from other descriptions that he wrote regarding the dwelling, that he is referring to the Angel Springs ruins in Roger's Canyon.

 

[deducer]

I'm pretty sure, from other descriptions that he wrote regarding the dwelling, that he is referring to the Angel Springs ruins in Roger's Canyon.

Possibly, but as I'm sure you know, the Salado ruins are made from mud bricks, not rock. One would think that Bicknell could distinguish between the two (if he actually was ever there).

 

[Hinterlander]

Possibly, but as I'm sure you know, the Salado ruins are made from mud bricks, not rock. One would think that Bicknell could distinguish between the two (if he actually was ever there).

Deducer,

I would have to disagree. The Salado constructed their dwellings using stacked stone packed with mud. Attached are a couple of photos that I took at the ruins that hopefully demonstrate their method.

Sal

 

[deducer]

Deducer,

I would have to disagree. The Salado constructed their dwellings using stacked stone packed with mud. Attached are a couple of photos that I took at the ruins that hopefully demonstrate their method.

Sal

Oops. I stand corrected.

 

[Idahodutch]

In his newspaper article, published in the San Francisco Chronicle (January 13, 1895), P. C. Bicknell writes that he "succeeded in finding a rock cabin in a cave, but it was the work of cliff dwellers ..."

I doubt if he wrote of the ruins at Tonto National Monument, so where was the "rock cabin in a cave" that he found?

View attachment 1842132

Here is a transcription of the 1895 article from Bicknell

 

[Cubfan64]

There is an inscription carved into a post inside the Roger's Canyon/Angel Springs ruins - "P.C. Bicknell 1894" whether it was really him or not I don't know.
Tom Kollenborn Chronicles: P.C. 'Bick' Bicknell

 

[Idahodutch]

There is an inscription carved into a post inside the Roger's Canyon/Angel Springs ruins - "P.C. Bicknell 1894" whether it was really him or not I don't know.
Tom Kollenborn Chronicles: P.C. 'Bick' Bicknell

Cubfan,
There is also an 1894 article by Bicknell. He thought he had found the 2 room rock house of Waltz and Weiser. He later talks about it not fitting. In the 1894 article he said distance from rock house to mine was 200 yards, but in the 1895 SF article, he has it at not more than 200’.
The 1894 one is much shorter ... lot less information.
I found it while searching the 1895 one out.

 

[Cubfan64]

Cubfan,
There is also an 1894 article by Bicknell. He thought he had found the 2 room rock house of Waltz and Weiser. He later talks about it not fitting. In the 1894 article he said distance from rock house to mine was 200 yards, but in the 1895 SF article, he has it at not more than 200’.
The 1894 one is much shorter ... lot less information.
I found it while searching the 1895 one out.

Many of us have read both of those newspaper articles more than a few times . There's more than a handful of inconsistencies between the stories and to be honest I suspect the tales were told merely to fascinate people and sell more newspapers - there's no reason I can think of for a person who admits he has looked for the mine (Bicknell) to provide ANY real clues in a newspaper article, he'd keep those to himself.

 

[Idahodutch]

Many of us have read both of those newspaper articles more than a few times . There's more than a handful of inconsistencies between the stories and to be honest I suspect the tales were told merely to fascinate people and sell more newspapers - there's no reason I can think of for a person who admits he has looked for the mine (Bicknell) to provide ANY real clues in a newspaper article, he'd keep those to himself.

Good morning Cubfan,
I meant no insult or disrespect. I was under impression that Bicknell was very excited about the cave dwelling find ... looks like he may have inscribed his mark there even.

I think it human nature to try to correct things or make adjustments that seem to help the flow of things .... generally speaking.
In regards to application of clues, after discouraging efforts or finding another way some clues do not fit , sometimes it seems the right thing, to make an adjustment ...

If think Bicknell was not impressed by Julia’s struggle to give accurate recall.
He found something and figured Julia was wrong. Human nature.

Do I say this happened? It sort of does look like it.
I believe after his little whirlwind over that cave dwelling (which is a very cool find),
that he cleared his head and then gave us Julia’s account in the 1895 article.

As you say.... inconsistencies between the two.
The first one, seems to be heavy with gold fever and distortions..
The second one, was for a very large publication, and seems much more professional, and happens to be the one that led me to this location to begin with.

From my perspective it yielded a fantastic site, and then got confirmation through clues from Holmes camp. I have to admit that the 1895 article.... so far.... has been a great tool for locating the LDM. It just didn’t say how to find the hidden camp, except that it was a certain distance from the mine.

I was stuck for a long time on the hidden camp. It was Holmes clue for the hidden camp, that when finally hit home, it tied it all together.

The chips will fall where they fall, and right now, they’re pointing straight at this location in Needle Canyon. I’m just following clues.

 

[Cubfan64]

Anyone have a copy of a letter to the editor in Arizona Gazette, August 10, 1886 entitled "Superstition Mountains, Old Myths and Legends Dispelled?" If I have the name of the paper and date correct, it was something pre-dating Waltz's death written by someone named "Bick," suggesting P.C. Bicknell was familiar with the Superstition Mountains prior to his later 1894/1895 newspaper articles.

If anyone has a copy, could you post it here?

 

[markmar]

From what I know, what is across the ravine from the LDM, is not a rock cabin in a cave, nor a roofless two room house in a cave's mouth. I would name it a ruin of a roofless two room building in a cave's mouth.
If the ruin would been a room of a house or a cabin, then Waltz would never set camp in the shallow cave beside the ruin where he was almost exposed to the wind and rain. He just had to put a tarpaulin as a roof and would stay inside the house, or he would not needed a tarpaulin as a roof if the cabin would been in a cave. If you will find the answer to this, you will know what you are looking for.
Many have claimed to have found a ruin of a cabin or a house in cave, but none of those findings had a shallow cave beside and a deep ravine, impassable​ without climbing gear, a dozen yards away.

 

[Cubfan64]

Thanks to a member, I received a copy of the letter to the editor signed by "Bick." The copy actually came from a reprint available in "Arizona The Last Frontier" by Joseph Miller. I actually had never seen this before and while there's nothing terribly new, I noticed 2 things...

[FONT=Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1) The location "Bick" is writing the letter to the editor is listed as "Willow Springs, in the Superstitions." Is this the same Willow Springs Adolph Ruth was packed into? Did Ruth have any correspondence with Bicknell?

2) I'm struck by the similarities in the description of the Pima/Apache battle site and the description Bark gave of the sun bleached bones in the Massacre Grounds area.
[/FONT][FONT=Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Robert Blair, in his excellent Tales of the Superstitions; The Origin of the Lost Dutchman Legend (1975) discusses Adolph Ruth's scrapbook of lost mine articles, including "...a clipping from an old San Francisco newspaper - the mine of Dutch Jacob." In a footnote Blair notes he searched the 1892 files of the San Francisco Chronicle and failed to find the story.

We now know, of course, that he was looking in the wrong year. The famous LDM article appeared January 13, 1895.

Blair does discuss Ruth's earlier search for the Lost Pegleg, and mentions Chronicle articles printed in 1891 and 1892 about Thomas Smith's lost black nuggets.

Personally, I'd like to see a copy of P.C. Bicknell's "Where Is the Silver[?]" published in the Arizona Daily Gazette November 5, 1894, about the Doc Thorne Mine.

Probert lists other Bicknell articles. Forgive me if these are "common knowledge" to long-time Dutch Hunters:

"A Mythical Mine" Arizona Saturday Review November 17, 1894

"Dutch Jacob's Mine" Arizona Gazette August 22, 1895 - Reprinted Arizona Saturday Review August 24, 1895.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[markmar]

Thanks to a member, I received a copy of the letter to the editor signed by "Bick." The copy actually came from a reprint available in "Arizona The Last Frontier" by Joseph Miller. I actually had never seen this before and while there's nothing terribly new, I noticed 2 things...

1) The location "Bick" is writing the letter to the editor is listed as "Willow Springs, in the Superstitions." Is this the same Willow Springs Adolph Ruth was packed into? Did Ruth have any correspondence with Bicknell?

2) I'm struck by the similarities in the description of the Pima/Apache battle site and the description Bark gave of the sun bleached bones in the Massacre Grounds area.
View attachment 1921464

A massacre of 200 Pima warriors? So the Apache were over 300. Maybe they were the 300 of Leonidas to kill all the Pimas without one man to escape.
IMHO, that group of Pimas were not chasing Apache thiefs, but that was only a motivation to cover a different event which occurred at the time of Pimas revolt in 1751.
The Pimas warriors massacre/sacrifice was just another example of what can happen to those who are carrying and help to hide treasures for kings and others who have power, even religious or leadership.
Why the Aztec, Jesuit and pirates treasures still lost? Oh, those Apache!

 

[azdave35]

Robert Blair, in his excellent Tales of the Superstitions; The Origin of the Lost Dutchman Legend (1975) discusses Adolph Ruth's scrapbook of lost mine articles, including "...a clipping from an old San Francisco newspaper - the mine of Dutch Jacob." In a footnote Blair notes he searched the 1892 files of the San Francisco Chronicle and failed to find the story.

We now know, of course, that he was looking in the wrong year. The famous LDM article appeared January 13, 1895.

Blair does discuss Ruth's earlier search for the Lost Pegleg, and mentions Chronicle articles printed in 1891 and 1892 about Thomas Smith's lost black nuggets.

Personally, I'd like to see a copy of P.C. Bicknell's "Where Is the Silver[?]" published in the Arizona Daily Gazette November 5, 1894, about the Doc Thorne Mine.

Probert lists other Bicknell articles. Forgive me if these are "common knowledge" to long-time Dutch Hunters:

"A Mythical Mine" Arizona Saturday Review November 17, 1894

"Dutch Jacob's Mine" Arizona Gazette August 22, 1895 - Reprinted Arizona Saturday Review August 24, 1895.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

i'd also like to read the article "where's the silver"

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

The correct title is: "Where Was The Silver", sub-titled, "A Curious Find in the recesses of the Superstitions", Arizona Daily Gazette, November 5, 1894, Page 5, Column 2. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Thank you for the correction. Probert did a very good job - but none of us are perfect.

Do you have a copy of the article you're willing to share?

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[Cubfan64]

A massacre of 200 Pima warriors? So the Apache were over 300. Maybe they were the 300 of Leonidas to kill all the Pimas without one man to escape.
IMHO, that group of Pimas were not chasing Apache thiefs, but that was only a motivation to cover a different event which occurred at the time of Pimas revolt in 1751.
The Pimas warriors massacre/sacrifice was just another example of what can happen to those who are carrying and help to hide treasures for kings and others who have power, even religious or leadership.
Why the Aztec, Jesuit and pirates treasures still lost? Oh, those Apache!

I don't believe the numbers listed either - that all sounds like "True West" magazine legend, exaggeration and storytelling, but I found it interesting to note Bicknell's description of having visited the site of "a massacre" and finding pieces of weapons still present and mentioning that not long before that there were plentiful bones - very similar to what Bark described the Massacre Grounds to have looked like at one time is all.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Paul, I'm thinking Gov't Well may have been called Willow Springs when Bick wrote his letter.

Here's a reprint of Bick's "Where's the Silver":

View attachment Bicknell 9 NOV 1894.pdf